Dumb Question

A previous post mentioning Marty Hall's technique for handling fast, sharp
curves got me to thinking: what is the best technique for staying in the
tracks on a wicked, high-speed corner? Especially when the tracks are icy?
I usually just bail out and go around on the flat-packed (skating) part of
the trail, but I'm guessing that the really good skiers (like you guys) hang
in there, in an aerodynamic tuck.

-JJ

here's a dumb answer, but it works for me, and I'm not a "...really good
skier." I do like the downhill guys do, and steer myself around the turn
with my opposite arm hooked out into the air. It's an extension of a
teaching technique I used to use with my Jackrabbits, and that's to "signal
your turn with your opposite elbow. " If you raise your elbow and point
your fist around in the direction of the turn, it seems to transfer your
weight in all the right directions. You gotta keep both hands in front of
you though, otherwise you over-rotate.

Here's the disclaimer: I don't know how well this works on icy wicked high
speed corners, 'cuz I've never had the guts to try it. In those situations,
I get out of the tracks and scramble like crazy from one ski to the other
and step turn in the direction I'm trying to go, and try to keep from
falling over.

Helpful, huh?!?


Tim

From: "Jeff J."
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 07:17:09 -0600
Subject: Dumb Question

A previous post mentioning Marty Hall's technique for handling fast, sharp
curves got me to thinking: what is the best technique for staying in the
tracks on a wicked, high-speed corner? Especially when the tracks are icy?
I usually just bail out and go around on the flat-packed (skating) part of
the trail, but I'm guessing that the really good skiers (like you guys) hang
in there, in an aerodynamic tuck.

-JJ

I was wondering the same thing. So at least you are not the only one thiking
of dumb questions...I normally just slide around on my arse and then stand
up once I've come to a stop and keep going. Works well for me but it is not
too efficient and not really all that stylish. This season I'm hoping to
learn how to do the corners standing up. I wouldn't mind hearing how folks
do this as well.

:O)

Bob


"Jeff J." wrote in message
.. .
A previous post mentioning Marty Hall's technique for handling fast, sharp
curves got me to thinking: what is the best technique for staying in the
tracks on a wicked, high-speed corner? Especially when the tracks are
icy?
I usually just bail out and go around on the flat-packed (skating) part of
the trail, but I'm guessing that the really good skiers (like you guys)
hang
in there, in an aerodynamic tuck.

-JJ

"Bob Creasote" wrote in message
...
I was wondering the same thing. So at least you are not the only one
thiking
of dumb questions...I normally just slide around on my arse and then
stand
up once I've come to a stop and keep going.

Danger Danger
Best to keep your backside off the icy track at all times.
Otherwise your tailbone gets thumped, this in turn pushes
the spinal column up between the sacroiliac joints which
can strain the 'seal', the result is twist and turn pain in later
life.
Mike

Jeff,

I've found that three things help, all of which have sort of been
mentioned. First is body position. You want to be low and forward so that
your center of gravity is in between your skis and low, which brings
stability and the ability to handle terrain variations and unexpected
forces. Get this position by *relaxing*, bending at the knees, ankles and
hips, lowering your upper body on top of all of this. Make sure that you
are forward, which includes hands - hold them a bit in front of your chest
or a bit lower, but do not let them get close to your body.

Second is leading with the hands and head. It is startling how silly
this seems, but if you look to where you want to go and then point at it
with your outside hand, you will go there. The "outside hand" refers to
turning; if you are making a left turn, your right hand is the outside hand.
Initiate a turn by looking where you want to go and reaching toward it with
your outside arm. This will begin a slight rotation and repositioning that
will lead you into your turn. DO NOT look at objects you want to avoid
(like the dude who just fell in front of you, or that stout tree to the side
of the trail).

Finally, leg work will get you through the corner. If you are in the
tracks, push your outside ski a bit forward, kind of like a telemark turn.
This will make you more stable. If you are skating around a corner or
step-turning, you will need to actually turn yourself. Again, initiate with
the outside hand. This will rotate you and point everything in the right
direction. If you are outside of the track, you will take lots of little
steps, changing direction with the inside ski, then bringing the outside
ski parallel to the inside ski.

One more thing - confidence. There is a Zen thing in all downhill
activities that I have experienced, whether mountain biking, rollerskiing,
skiing or other crazy pursuit. This is especially true of staying in the
track around a fast, icy corner. You have to believe that you are going to
make it and that you are going to do it well. As soon as you lose
confidence and fear something, the fear overtakes all aspects of brain
function and you lose the motor skills and focus that keep you on track.
Skiing is nice because, generally, the worst that happens is you cartwheel
into the trees and laugh at yourself. Other sports have much more serious
consequences to falling, so it is not as easy to test this theory out. But
if you believe in yourself and keep that fear at bay, most often that is how
you get around an icy corner in the track.

I wrote an article on this and I think it either appeared in the last
issue of Master Skier last year, or will appear in the first issue this
year. I don't remember which, so I guess if you want to find out, you'll
have to check out the first issue of Master Skier.

BTW, Ski Racing magazine (the one that has treated nordic like a
red-headed step-child) just got bought out by Inside Communications, the
same company that owns Velonews. They are trying to make amends to the
nordic world by dramatically increasing the quantity and quality of xc
coverage and hiring really good cross-country writers. So, it may be worth
checking out....

-Nathan
http://nsavage.com


"Jeff J." wrote in message
.. .
A previous post mentioning Marty Hall's technique for handling fast, sharp
curves got me to thinking: what is the best technique for staying in the
tracks on a wicked, high-speed corner? Especially when the tracks are
icy?
I usually just bail out and go around on the flat-packed (skating) part of
the trail, but I'm guessing that the really good skiers (like you guys)
hang
in there, in an aerodynamic tuck.

-JJ

....or thump your tailbone, which causes compression and weakening of your
lower thoracic and upper lumbar vertebrae; the result is constant low-grade
back pain in later life.

I guess with turning on icy tracks, you just have to decide which area of
your body you're least willing to damage, and adjust your technique
accordingly. :-(


Tim

From: "Taywood"
Reply-To: "Taywood"
Newsgroups: rec.skiing.nordic
Date: Thu, 11 Sep 2003 17:10:38 +0100
Subject: Dumb Question

Danger Danger
Best to keep your backside off the icy track at all times.
Otherwise your tailbone gets thumped, this in turn pushes
the spinal column up between the sacroiliac joints which
can strain the 'seal', the result is twist and turn pain in later
life.
Mike

"Jeff J." wrote in message ...
A previous post mentioning Marty Hall's technique for handling fast, sharp
curves got me to thinking: what is the best technique for staying in the
tracks on a wicked, high-speed corner? Especially when the tracks are icy?
I usually just bail out and go around on the flat-packed (skating) part of
the trail, but I'm guessing that the really good skiers (like you guys) hang
in there, in an aerodynamic tuck.

Jeff,

I don't think it's such a bad thing to bail out and step around a turn
(which is legal). Just because there's tracks on a corner doesn't mean
you can or should stay in them. Up at Giants Ridge I completely
yard-saled on a corner during some training. I was trying to push my
limits and the skis just locked up in the tracks and threw me across
the trail. I looked back at the corner and just kind of smiled at my
stupidity of trying to stay in the tracks on a corner that sharp (and
at that high speed).

If you fall in a race, it's usually a big deal to get back in rhythm
and gain back the ground you lost. Classic seems like more of a
finesse (sp?) type of thing, and it's hard to just hammer, catch up
and then back off.

Jay Wenner

Thanks for the input, everyone. BTW, the local (Denver area) weather
forecast is calling for snow as low as 6000 feet for Sunday morning (this
means the foothills will be really pretty, and I will HAVE to go for a
morning hike in one of the Open Space parks)(where the parking is free,
also).

I think the reason pushing the outside ski forward helps is that it puts
more weight on the rear of the inside edge of the outside ski.

I once read a mechanical engineering paper that explained (in some
complicated engineering formulas) why the _rear_ of the ski was critical for
holding an edge.

I remember in my early days of trying to descend steep hardpack slopes at
downhill resorts on skinny skis with a 3-pin binding -- that this was about
the only situation where the telemark position was actually better than stem
christie -- for getting some edge-grip on hard snow.

Ken

It depends on the turning technique, I think. Take one
example: downhill parallel turns (normally not a xc technique,
but just for illustration): the skier would indeed rotate the
upper torso opposite the turn direction, "swooshing"
with the heels. The result: skier faces more or less
downhill through an entire series of linked
turns. So in classic tracks, it might be very
effective to turn like a downhill skier (?) maybe.
But in step turns on cross coutry skis,
I like the idea of pointing with the opposite arm
in the direction of the turn. One result of that is it
puts that arm and pole in an ideal position for a last
second correction, which would be to rotate it
outwards and away to torque the lower body inwards more.
But mostly it just places you in a more commanding
position through the turn. -Bob


Paul Heraty wrote in message ...
Would like to hear opinions on a technique we have been taught by a
number of coaches... Maybe this was Marty Hall's technique discussed
earlier? (sorry I'm coming late to the discussion)

Nathan and others have talked about leading with the outside arm
(pointing in the direction of the turn). In other words, to turn left,
point in that direction with the right arm.

We have been taught a technique which seems completely opposite -- you
rotate the upper body to the outside of the turn. in other words, to
turn left, you keep knees facing left in tracks, but point slightly
right with both arms. Apparently this countermotion has the effect of
twisting hips left and canting/weighting skis slightly so they edge
around the turn better in the tracks.

This pointing to the outside of the turn is very counterintuitive, but
it seems to have worked on fast corners for me. Scary though, and
staying calm, confident and low is a must.

paul heraty



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