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Stupid helmet question ...



 
 
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  #21  
Old January 17th 07, 09:09 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Alun Evans
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Posts: 21
Default Stupid helmet question ...



On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 16:38 "Matt T" wrote:
snip

It's the decreased hearing and peripheral vision I'm not keen on.


I've got mine on right now (seriously), and I can't see it...

My ear pads are removable. (But I can happily hear iTunes playing...).

Advice from the manager of a ski shop here? Make sure you go faster than
everyone else on the hill....


Heh


A.
Ads
  #22  
Old January 17th 07, 09:26 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Pip Luscher
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Posts: 50
Default Stupid helmet question ...

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:06:10 -0000, "MoonMan"
wrote:

I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for feeling safer"
idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer? I am just as loath to hit the
ground wether I have my helmet (or other padding/protection for that matter)
on or not. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm about to hit the
ground I don't have time to think about what I'm wearing.


ISTR that it's called "risk compensation" and I'm very aware of it
when riding a motorbike. If I'm wearing full leathers as opposed to,
say, jacket and jeans, I ride a lot faster (for relative values of
fast), especially round corners.

I did *once* take a helmet on a skiing trip, and that was last year
when I also took a back protector because I wanted to go boarding in a
snow park. The reason I took this kit was to deliberately increase my
confidence in my first very cautious attempt in a half-pipe.

It worked, slightly.

--
-Pip
  #23  
Old January 17th 07, 09:42 PM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Ace
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Posts: 275
Default Stupid helmet question ...

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:26:41 GMT, Pip Luscher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:06:10 -0000, "MoonMan"
wrote:

I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for feeling safer"
idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer?


ISTR that it's called "risk compensation" and I'm very aware of it
when riding a motorbike. If I'm wearing full leathers as opposed to,
say, jacket and jeans, I ride a lot faster (for relative values of
fast), especially round corners.


Indeed, and it's a basic human reaction - the safer we feel, the more
likely we are to take risks. Even being aware of it doesn't stop you
doing it.

I did *once* take a helmet on a skiing trip, and that was last year
when I also took a back protector because I wanted to go boarding in a
snow park. The reason I took this kit was to deliberately increase my
confidence in my first very cautious attempt in a half-pipe.


I don't recall you using it though. Or was that later?

It worked, slightly.


You did the pipe? And how was it?
--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #24  
Old January 18th 07, 05:47 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
pg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 95
Default Stupid helmet question ...


"Ace" wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:16:32 +0000, Alun Evans
| wrote:
|
| On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote:
|
| I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used
to
| come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still
do,
| but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never
try
| to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
| tells me that I should wear one;-)
|
| Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a
resort
| tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US).
|
| The Ski Club has made it a rule that all children on Ski Freshtracks
| holidays should wear them, which seems to be in keeping with the trend
| in various resorts around the world. There's some info on current
| rules im various resorts on the Ski Club site at
| http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/gui...?intGuideID=24

Going off on a slight tangent, I lunched at the Chalets de l'Arc in Arc
2000 end of December. The upper restaurant suddenly filled with Fresh
Trackers across from La Plagne for the day. Weeks since significant
snowfall, avalanche risk 1, off piste virtually impossible, it was just
a touch amusing when the whole group stripped off jackets in the steamy
atmosphere to reveal matching yellow strapped Arvas, all flashing away
throughout the meal. I managed to avoid asking whether they feared being
buried under an avalanche of tartiflette ;-) The local French thought it
was hilarious. Ah, ces rosbifs.

Understood from one of the group that it is now compulsory on certain
holidays, irrespective of the conditions/practicability of off-piste?

Pete
http://mysnowsports.com



  #25  
Old January 18th 07, 05:55 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
pg
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 95
Default Stupid helmet question ...


"Pip Luscher" wrote in
message ...
| On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:06:10 -0000, "MoonMan"
| wrote:
|
| I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for feeling
safer"
| idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer? I am just as loath to
hit the
| ground wether I have my helmet (or other padding/protection for that
matter)
| on or not. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm about to hit
the
| ground I don't have time to think about what I'm wearing.
|
| ISTR that it's called "risk compensation" and I'm very aware of it
| when riding a motorbike. If I'm wearing full leathers as opposed to,
| say, jacket and jeans, I ride a lot faster (for relative values of
| fast), especially round corners.

Doesn't apply across the board though. If you're brought up to wear a
helmet as a child, it's just *what you do*. If 'risk compensation' is
the main reason in some cases for people deciding not to wear a helmet,
all the more reason for those who have kids to ensure they wear them
from the start, then this phenomenon won't happen.

Pete
http://mysnowsports.com


  #26  
Old January 18th 07, 08:00 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Stupid helmet question ...

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 06:47:18 +0100, "pg"
wrote:


"Ace" wrote in message
.. .


| The Ski Club has made it a rule that all children on Ski Freshtracks
| holidays should wear [helmets]


Going off on a slight tangent, I lunched at the Chalets de l'Arc in Arc
2000 end of December. The upper restaurant suddenly filled with Fresh
Trackers across from La Plagne for the day. Weeks since significant
snowfall, avalanche risk 1, off piste virtually impossible, it was just
a touch amusing when the whole group stripped off jackets in the steamy
atmosphere to reveal matching yellow strapped Arvas, all flashing away
throughout the meal. I managed to avoid asking whether they feared being
buried under an avalanche of tartiflette ;-) The local French thought it
was hilarious. Ah, ces rosbifs.

Understood from one of the group that it is now compulsory on certain
holidays, irrespective of the conditions/practicability of off-piste?


It's compulsory for any off-piste excursion, at any time, and it's
also compulsory for everyone on all Ski Freshtracks holidays on- or
off-piste.

Some may laugh, but there are several reasons for it, including:
1. We see it as much as an educational thing as a short-term dafety
issue - getting punters to be aware that there is always a risk and
that we should always do what we can to minimise it is a lesson worth
teaching.
2. Dunno about you, but I've seen avalanches occuring in Risk 1
conditions - 1 doesn't mean no risk at all, just that it's the lowest
measure used.
3. If you don't wear your ARVA every day, how do you make a decision
as to which days to wear it? I've even known people who don't put it
on but carry it (not switched on) in their rucksack 'just in case'.
How stupid is that?
4. We have to cart the things out to the resort with us, so we're damn
well gonna make the punters wear them ;-)

So some folk may laugh, but do we care? Do we 'eck, as like.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
  #27  
Old January 18th 07, 10:30 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
MoonMan
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 236
Default Stupid helmet question ...

Ace wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:26:41 GMT, Pip Luscher
wrote:

On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 18:06:10 -0000, "MoonMan"
wrote:

I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for
feeling safer" idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer?


ISTR that it's called "risk compensation" and I'm very aware of it
when riding a motorbike. If I'm wearing full leathers as opposed to,
say, jacket and jeans, I ride a lot faster (for relative values of
fast), especially round corners.


Indeed, and it's a basic human reaction - the safer we feel, the more
likely we are to take risks. Even being aware of it doesn't stop you
doing it.

But as I said above, a helmet doesn't make me feel safer (apart from my chin
guard and slalom poles that is), I've never ridden a Motorbike on the road
without a helmet so I don't know any different in that case, and I tend not
to wear my pushbike helmet because it's uncomfortable and I can't see much
benefit, I certainly don't think a push bike helmet would protect me from
much more than cuts and graizes.


--
Chris *:-)

Downhill Good, Uphill BAD!

www.suffolkvikings.org.uk


  #28  
Old January 18th 07, 10:51 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Mike Clark
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 58
Default Stupid helmet question ...

In message
"pg" wrote:


"Pip Luscher" wrote in
message ...

[snip]
Doesn't apply across the board though. If you're brought up to wear a
helmet as a child, it's just *what you do*. If 'risk compensation' is
the main reason in some cases for people deciding not to wear a helmet,
all the more reason for those who have kids to ensure they wear them
from the start, then this phenomenon won't happen.


Risk compensation is certainly noticeable at a population level although
there may be individual variations. If you make something appear more
dangerous than it is, then the population response is to be more
cautious, if you make it appear safer the opposite is true. There will
always be some individials who behave at the extremes, i.e. in being
either too cautious or taking high risk (and in sports like skiing, rock
climbing, mountaineering, motorsport, etc we know that some of these
individuals are killed or seriously injured).

Equally "it's just *what you do*" doesn't rule out risk compensation,
it's simply that the individuals are starting from a different point.

For example as car design has made the handling and safety for
passengers safer people at the population level have tended to drive
faster, brake later, and take corners at higher speed. In effect the
drivers are adapting to a new level at which they feel comfortable. This
effect applies to older drivers who have experience of early car designs
as well as younger drivers who only experience modern car design.
Another effect involves road design, for example studies have shown that
if you remove road markings from urban areas, particularly at junctions,
people tend to drive at lower average speeds.

The point about risk compensation is that the individual adapts to a
point where they feel comfortable which may not necessarily correlate
with a given statistical risk as assessed by an independent actuarial
analysis.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
  #29  
Old January 18th 07, 11:01 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Mike Clark
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Posts: 58
Default Stupid helmet question ...

In message
"pg" wrote:


"Ace" wrote in message
...

[snip]
| I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to
| come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do,
| but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try
| to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one
| tells me that I should wear one;-)

It's a tough question, and clearly - given this incident on Monday ...

http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=683.html

... there are instances when a helmet would provide no protection
whatsoever. Still, there are multiple minor incidents when a helmet
could lessen the impact sufficiently to make it worthwhile - not least
when some out-of-control skier/boarder takes you out from behind. It's
not all down you taking a fall through your own foolishness/bad
luck/lack of technique/lack of awareness of the conditions...


Yes but this is based on an assumption that the wearing of helmets has
no other effect other than protecting people who would already have been
involved in an accident. Why it is worth worrying about other effects is
because it may be that the fact that more people wear helmets, may mean
that more accidents happen, and thus this tends to cancel out the
protective effect.

Certainly for bicycle helmet use the issue has been looked at quite
extensively and several studies have shown that in countries where
helmets have been made compulsory the main effect is to reduce the
numbers who cycle, rather than the chance of them suffering a serious
head injury in an accident. Thus at a population level the compulsion to
wear a helmet has altered more than just the susceptibility to injury.


Given the state of the snow around the Alps at the moment, I reckon at
least all youngsters should be strongly advised to wear one. As for
adults... I reckon it should remain their choice.

Still, hopefully there'll be some snow at last, next week! Some
promising forecasts, but don't get too excited ;-)


I'm next out to Argentiere for a weekend in late February, and then
again for two weeks touring in early April, so I can afford to be
patient.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
" || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"
  #30  
Old January 18th 07, 11:04 AM posted to rec.skiing.resorts.europe
Ace
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 275
Default Stupid helmet question ...

On Thu, 18 Jan 2007 10:30:20 -0000, "MoonMan"
wrote:

Ace wrote:
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 21:26:41 GMT, Pip Luscher
wrote:


ISTR that it's called "risk compensation" and I'm very aware of it
when riding a motorbike. If I'm wearing full leathers as opposed to,
say, jacket and jeans, I ride a lot faster (for relative values of
fast), especially round corners.


Indeed, and it's a basic human reaction - the safer we feel, the more
likely we are to take risks. Even being aware of it doesn't stop you
doing it.

But as I said above, a helmet doesn't make me feel safer (apart from my chin
guard and slalom poles that is),


Ask the question the other way round, then. Would you feel _less_ safe
if you were skiing without a helmet?

I've never ridden a Motorbike on the road
without a helmet so I don't know any different in that case,


I always wear a helmet, of course. But when I don't, same as if I'm
riding in shorts and T-shirt, I'm very much aware of how much more
vulnerable I am in the event of a spill.

and I tend not
to wear my pushbike helmet because it's uncomfortable and I can't see much
benefit, I certainly don't think a push bike helmet would protect me from
much more than cuts and graizes.


Well quite. That pretty much mirrors my view of ski helmets.

--
Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk
All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club.
 




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