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Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.



 
 
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  #1  
Old December 4th 04, 07:50 AM
foot2foot
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Default Wedge vs. Stem; The Difference.

OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?





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  #2  
Old December 4th 04, 08:04 AM
Dmitry
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"foot2foot" wrote

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.


I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal? I've
witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,
and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)
probably won't do anything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.


  #3  
Old December 4th 04, 08:05 AM
Jon C
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Default

foot2foot wrote:

OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?


I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not
sure how it works really.

I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then
turned that into carving.

I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit
and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side.
As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and
let them curve a little bit. Eventually I learned to just lean into the
ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it.
  #4  
Old December 4th 04, 11:39 AM
BrritSki
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foot2foot wrote:

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?

Yes, thankyou for the explanation.
  #5  
Old December 4th 04, 01:02 PM
foot2foot
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"Dmitry" wrote in message


I'm really serious: why is it such a big deal?


Because in most cases, it has taken people *years*
to move from the bunny hills to parallel skiing on the
blues. That's why almost all new skiers quit after the
first day. This system solves that problem.

I've witnessed no less than five people of very different
background start skiing parallel on their first or
second day with very little external influence. They
all had grave problems with more difficult terrain though,


Exactly. The magic turns system is what enables a very
new skier to take the steep greens and the blues within
hours. It's highly edged, aggressive, carved. With the old
systems, or with most people that never had any help, on
the steeper terrain, it all falls apart. It's because they have
part of the tools they need, but not all. There are only
a few. If you have them it's easy for anybody.

and for that magic turns (I really hate your nomenclature)


I didn't invent it. An extremely major ski area's learning
center uses this terminology. I decided to steal it. This
system is gaining wider use by the day.

Before I heard that, to me it was a schrittbogen system.
But that only really refers to picking up the tail and leaving
the tip on the snow. It's a whole system that does the job.

You'll *really* hate it if I go back to calling it schrittbogen.

probably won't do anything.


Actually it does everything.

I could understand something like this when learning
to snowboard (in fact, that would be really great and
save a lot of broken tailbones), but for skis it should
only be good for reeeeally athletically challanged
chikens.


Which most new skiers are. If you have a really athletic
type, they can just muscle the skis to do what they want.
Most people can't do this. They need finesse.

The beginner berm is what makes skiing fun and
relaxed for even the most timid. It can help for
snowboarding as well, but snowboarding is different.
Going straight on a flat board just isn't a good idea.
Especially for a beginner No?


  #6  
Old December 4th 04, 01:03 PM
foot2foot
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"BrritSki" wrote in message
...
foot2foot wrote:

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?

Yes, thank you for the explanation.


Yo, no way....:?))))

Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski.
Or would that be an ale?

If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the
stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know
or think about the difference.


  #7  
Old December 4th 04, 01:16 PM
foot2foot
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"Jon C" wrote in message
I'm a relatively new skier, but I never did the wedge thing. Still not
sure how it works really.


I would say that, after a while, when you're fairly confident
and able with your parallel skiing, you might want to learn to
wedge as well. Just about anyone can show it to you, or you
could get an idea about how it works by watching a class of
toddlers learn to ski. Put your skis in a 'V" shape, put more
weight on the outside ski. Use both big toe edges instead of
the big toe edge of the outside ski, and little toe edge of the
inside ski. You won't use it very often, but even the most
fearless extreme skier uses his or her wedge once in a while,
for example, to approach a dangerous drop and get into the
position they want to start the run from. Or, to control speed
in an extremely narrow but not too steep place where there's
really no room to turn.

But I wouldn't fool around with a wedge right away, since
you're doing so well straight to parallel. It might cause you
to lose progress for a while. I wouldn't even worry about
picking up the tail and leaving the tip on the snow anymore.
Of course, you never did.

I went from going straight and falling to hockey style stops, then
turned that into carving.


The hockey stop is often a key to learning parallel. The whole
secret to a skidded parallel turn is the same sideslip that you
learn via the hockey stop. It takes most people a while to
get this down. Most people can only stop at first my making
a turn all the way across and up the hill to a stop.

Basically, the skidded parallel turn involves getting all over
the tips, and skidding the tails around the tips to tighten up
the radius of your turn. It takes fairly fine edge control,
which you apparently already have.

I managed to turn just well enough to get by by hopping up a little bit
and just tossing the tails off to one side. Repeat on the other side.


This would be an up unweight. Give a little hop, change the
edges, and steer the skis as you wish. Advanced stuff really. I
personally still do not do it all that well. Great!

As I got a feel for the skis I'd "throw" the backs of the skis less and
let them curve a little bit.


The good, and rare thing about this is, you're talking about the
*tails* of the skis as the part of the ski that moves the most,
which means your pivot point is well forward on the skis. Most
want to stay in the backseat, which is ineffective and dangerous.
The best thing a new skier can do is to start, and stay well
forward on the skis. It's the job of the instructor to make sure
this happens.

Eventually I learned to just lean into the
ski the right way instead of actually trying to move it.


Now you're speaking of a "just crossover and edge" type of
turn. A *whole* lot of advanced for a new skier.

Absolutely great. Getting way forward on the ski is what
makes it easy for a new skier to turn, or any skier for that
matter.

You're an exceptional student, and obviously a very talented
skier. Go with exactly what you've been doing would be my
suggestion. You've gotten way past all the stuff like initiation
with a wedge and picking up the tail while leaving the tip
on the snow, and done it in no time at all.

There are some other simple things a more advance skier
can work on, once you get hungry again, perhaps they'd
be of interest to you.

There is one thing I might suggest you consider and play around
with as you ski. To turn right, your body must be on the right
side of the skis. To turn left, your body must be on the left side
of the skis. Maybe just a tiny bit, maybe a little more, depending
on the speed and radius of the turn. You're looking to move the
body ahead and down the hill toward the center of the next turn.
The typical term is a "diagonal" move of the body across the skis
and down the hill toward the center point of the next turn.

There's some flexion and extension most people like to put
in there, but you don't really *need* to do this at first. You
can always work it in if you wish.

And, one more thing, your hands must always be out in front
of you where you can see them. This is more important than
anything else.

Keep up the incredible progress!!


  #8  
Old December 4th 04, 01:36 PM
Richard Henry
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"foot2foot" wrote in message
...
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.

People have for all modern skiing time learned to ski in a
wedge for the most part. The question then arose and still does,
how do you get the student to move from wedge turns into
making parallel turns, often called "matching the skis"?

Today, use magic turns.

To make a magic turn, traverse, make a wedge to set the
edges of both skis, transfer weight to the outside ski and
pick up the tail of the inside ski (while leaving the tip of the
inside ski on the snow) and put it back next to the outside ski.
Always hold hands well in front of you, shoulders square to
your direction of travel. Or, at first, keep the shoulders square
to the skis. Skiing is done with the legs, not the shoulders.

To do the old stem that comes out of the twenties or thirties,
traverse, put *all* the weight on the inside ski, (unnatural
and difficult at best), while leaving that inside ski in the traverse
path you're already on, extend the fully unweighted outside ski
to make a "v" shape with both skis, tips close, tails spread
apart. *THEN*, transfer all the weight from the inside ski
(if you haven't fallen over yet) to the *outside ski*, *THENNN*
pick up the inside ski and put it next to the outside ski, and
*TTTHHHENNNN* even out the weight onto both skis a
bit and turn.

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


See, there's a lot of unnatural steps and extra motion
to the stem that doesn't happen if you initiate a turn
with a *wedge*. Right?

Serious replies only please. No subject changing,
small talk or giggle posts.

Pretty please?


You're funny.

giggle


  #9  
Old December 4th 04, 02:20 PM
BrritSki
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foot2foot wrote:

"BrritSki" wrote in message
...

foot2foot wrote:

Cmon. You *really* can't see the difference?


Yes, thank you for the explanation.



Yo, no way....:?))))

Way. I can see what you mean by the difference. I'm not sure that anyone
ever did a pure stem though or the results would have been as you say,
arse over tit. I would guess that most people did some combination of
the stem and the wedge naturally to avoid this, but I'm not an
instructor and I learnt a long time ago in Italy so it's hard for me to
remember.

Hmm, I guess I'll have to buy you and Dave M a beer apres ski.
Or would that be an ale?


Either.


If you want, I could dig up a 1930's explanation of how the
stem turn is/was done. A lot of instructors don't really know
or think about the difference.

No. Please don't.

BTW, I think you misunderstand why I and others have a go at you. It's
not because I necessarily think that everything you say is wrong. It is
good to see someone post about ski technique and argue their case. The
problem is that you are so dogmatic and long-winded and don't understand
or won't accept some widely accepted facets of physics and statistics.

Have some fun skiing if there's any snow near you. My daughter is having
fun in Val d'Isere this weekend and I'll be kicking off my season next
weekend in Verbier.
  #10  
Old December 4th 04, 02:47 PM
miles
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foot2foot wrote:
OK, Britt wants to know the difference, (he claims, maybe he
just wants more argument for argument's sake) and it actually
comes up all the time, you try to explain magic turns and sooner
or later somebody pipes up and says "yeahhh that's just the old
stem christy". But it's not.


Many ski schools are now teaching parallel turns from the very 1st day.
They do so by teaching with very short skis and no ski poles. With
the shorter skis and new teaching methods people are learning at a far
faster pace.
 




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