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#11
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Stupid helmet question ...
In message
Ace wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans wrote: On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote: Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or not they were wearing a helmet? I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other, unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend itself to head-plants. I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time, including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper helmet, such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother. Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided no benefit. I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one tells me that I should wear one;-) I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration) http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/295/8/919 from a Norwegian study by Sulheim et al 2006 which makes for some interesting reading since they did attempt to look for confounding influences in their study. They concluded overall that helmets did provide protection, but their data also reveals other factors that were also associated with increased accident and injury rates. For example they found that for serious head injuries that snow boarders were more likely to be injured than alpine skiers who in turn were more likely to be injured than telemark skiers. Age and ability also seemed to be important in that teenage and also less experienced people were more likely to be injured. For example those aged 13-20 made up 25.6% of their control sample (randomly selected as every 10th person queuing at the bottom lift stations), but accounted for 42.2% of their severe head injuries. In contrast those over 20 (64.1%) accounted for 43.5% of severe head injuries. The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than those who regarded themselves as cautious skiers. Mike -- o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark \__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, " || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" |
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#12
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Stupid helmet question ...
Alun Evans wrote:
On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans wrote: On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote: Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or not they were wearing a helmet? I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other, unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend itself to head-plants. I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time, including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've experienced. Indeed. I had the same thoughts, though after a couple of close scrapes with branches, I decided to give it a try, and it's not too bad. Nice and toasty when it's cold too. snip Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from Indeed, which is why I didn't... - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided no benefit. I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one tells me that I should wear one;-) Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a resort tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US). I think it's also the case that FIS Slalom racers *must* wear one now? Yep, the regulations have just changed so that hemets must be worn for all disciplines I wear mine for racing/training and when it's cold, it's far better than a hat. -- Chris *:-) |
#13
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Stupid helmet question ...
Alun Evans wrote: On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote: On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans wrote: On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote: Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or not they were wearing a helmet? I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other, unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend itself to head-plants. I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time, including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've experienced. Indeed. I had the same thoughts, though after a couple of close scrapes with branches, I decided to give it a try, and it's not too bad. Nice and toasty when it's cold too. snip Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from Indeed, which is why I didn't... - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided no benefit. I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one tells me that I should wear one;-) Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a resort tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US). I think it's also the case that FIS Slalom racers *must* wear one now? Personally, when it's sunny and not too cold, it is nicer with just a pair of sunglasses. A. Interesting discussion - I keep telling myself I'm going to go and buy a helmet, but I too prefer hat and sunglasses so keep putting it off. Skiers and boarders I know all seem to have gone and bought one when they've either had a close call themselves or seen someone else come a cropper. Anecdotally, boarders do seem to land on their head more since if you catch an edge at speed you'll probably ragdoll down the hill hitting your head as you go, and too fast to do anything to stop it. Skiers on the other hand seem to have the rest of their body as a crumple zone so it's more likely to be unlucky colisions with rocks and other slope users that do the damage. It's the decreased hearing and peripheral vision I'm not keen on. Advice from the manager of a ski shop here? Make sure you go faster than everyone else on the hill.... Matt |
#14
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Stupid helmet question ...
"Alun Evans" wrote in message ... On Sun 14 Jan '07 at 20:46 "Le Dieu" wrote: ... Just bought one and I'm heading out for four days next week. Just wondering if anyone's got any packing tips. I'm only taking an overnight bag which won't offer it much in the way of protection. I've seen a lot of helmets carried as hand luggage, clipped onto a bag. Though I've packed mine stuffed with clothing in the middle of my checked bag. A. Thanks for the tip. As for the politics, I was hoping not to start that debate as I'm wearing mine purely as a fashion accessory and to make me look a better skiier than I am. Must go and pack now. Where did I leave my pink one-piece? A. D. |
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Stupid helmet question ...
"Mike Clark" wrote in message .uk... | In message | Ace wrote: | | On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans | wrote: | | On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote: | | Have any resorts collected data on proportions of skiers using helmets | and also the proportions of skiers injured in accidents and whether or | not they were wearing a helmet? | | I personally know two head trauma incidents (one with helmet, fine; other, | unconscious), though they were both snow-boarders, which does seem to lend | itself to head-plants. | | I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about | their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time, | including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of | impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've | experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level | of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully | inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper helmet, | such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother. | | Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from | - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the | head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen | any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of | the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided | no benefit. | | I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to | come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, | but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try | to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one | tells me that I should wear one;-) | | | I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration) You can see the full study on MySnowSports, no registration neeeded... http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=591.html Pete |
#16
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Stupid helmet question ...
In message
"pg" wrote: "Mike Clark" wrote in message .uk... [snip] | | I've now found a study published in JAMA (requires registration) You can see the full study on MySnowSports, no registration neeeded... http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=591.html Pete Thanks for pointing that out. One aspect that I'd like to try and get an estimate for is the likeliehood of a reported accident per skier/snowboarder on the slopes. The Norwegian study says that they interviewed every 10th person in a queue sampled twice a day, and twice a week, throughout the study period, in order to get enough controls to match the expected number of injuries. However it doesn't give a total for the estimated number of skiers passing through the resorts during the study period. Mike -- o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark \__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, " || _`\,_ |__\ \ | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user" |
#17
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Stupid helmet question ...
Felly sgrifennodd Mike Clark :
The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than those who regarded themselves as cautious skiers. The seat-belt effect? When seat belts were made compulsory in the UK, injuries increased (people felt safer so took more risks), though serious injuries decreased. I am sure a similar effect can apply to helmets. However, I wonder if the greater tendency to take risks among helmet wearers may increase the overall serious injury rate in skiing. Yes, head injuries are serious, but so are back injuries, neck injuries and others, which a helmet cannot protect against. If I were the type of skier who slalom-raced off piste through the forests of the lower slopes, I guess I would wear a helmet. But anything which makes me feel safer is likely to make me more reckless, and I'd rather feel my true vulnerability. Adrian -- Adrian Shaw ais@ Adran Cyfrifiadureg, Prifysgol Cymru, aber. Aberystwyth, Ceredigion, Cymru ac. http://users.aber.ac.uk/ais/weather/ uk |
#18
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Stupid helmet question ...
Adrian D. Shaw wrote:
Felly sgrifennodd Mike Clark : The other thing that the study threw up was that those who regarded themselves as risk takers were more likely to wear a helmet than those who regarded themselves as cautious skiers. The seat-belt effect? When seat belts were made compulsory in the UK, injuries increased (people felt safer so took more risks), though serious injuries decreased. I am sure a similar effect can apply to helmets. However, I wonder if the greater tendency to take risks among helmet wearers may increase the overall serious injury rate in skiing. Yes, head injuries are serious, but so are back injuries, neck injuries and others, which a helmet cannot protect against. If I were the type of skier who slalom-raced off piste through the forests of the lower slopes, I guess I would wear a helmet. But anything which makes me feel safer is likely to make me more reckless, and I'd rather feel my true vulnerability. I don't understand this "reckless behavior to compensate for feeling safer" idea, why should a helmet make you feel safer? I am just as loath to hit the ground wether I have my helmet (or other padding/protection for that matter) on or not. I don't know about anyone else, but when I'm about to hit the ground I don't have time to think about what I'm wearing. The only time I can think off when I behave differently when wearing a helmet is in a Slalom course, When I am quite happy to headbutt a pole when wearring a helmet but endeavour to keep my head away from the pole if I'm not. but a face guard would be equally effective in this case. -- Chris *:-) |
#19
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Stupid helmet question ...
"Ace" wrote in message ... | On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 14:12:06 +0000, Alun Evans | wrote: | | On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 12:38 Mike Clark wrote: | | I've never worn a helmet for skiing or cycling, and am sceptical about | their efficacy. I work on the basis that I've fallen loads of time, | including head plants, and never damaged my head, so the sort of | impact I'd like to protect against is much greater than those I've | experienced. Unfortunately, in the case of massive impact, the level | of protection provided by cycle and ski helmets is woefully | inadequate, as far as I can tell, so I'll either wear a proper helmet, | such as I use(d) for motorcycling, or not bother. | | Anyhoo, your sample size is clearly too small to draw conclusions from | - I've personally witnessed dozens of ski and board accidents wear the | head has made contact with sme other surface or object and never seen | any major trauma - doesn't mean it doesn't happen, just that in all of | the cases I've witnessed the wearing of a helmet would have provided | no benefit. | | I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to | come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, | but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try | to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one | tells me that I should wear one;-) It's a tough question, and clearly - given this incident on Monday ... http://mysnowsports.com/News/article/sid=683.html .... there are instances when a helmet would provide no protection whatsoever. Still, there are multiple minor incidents when a helmet could lessen the impact sufficiently to make it worthwhile - not least when some out-of-control skier/boarder takes you out from behind. It's not all down you taking a fall through your own foolishness/bad luck/lack of technique/lack of awareness of the conditions... Given the state of the snow around the Alps at the moment, I reckon at least all youngsters should be strongly advised to wear one. As for adults... I reckon it should remain their choice. Still, hopefully there'll be some snow at last, next week! Some promising forecasts, but don't get too excited ;-) Pete |
#20
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Stupid helmet question ...
On Wed, 17 Jan 2007 15:16:32 +0000, Alun Evans
wrote: On Wed 17 Jan '07 at 14:25 Ace wrote: I don't want to turn this into a helmet-wars argument, such as used to come around periodically on the cycling newsgroups (probably still do, but I've not been active there for years). I would certainly never try to persuade anyone that they're not a good idea, as long as no-one tells me that I should wear one;-) Well, it's more the legal aspects that should worry you, i.e. when a resort tells you to wear one, or your insurers do. (Particularly in the US). The Ski Club has made it a rule that all children on Ski Freshtracks holidays should wear them, which seems to be in keeping with the trend in various resorts around the world. There's some info on current rules im various resorts on the Ski Club site at http://www.skiclub.co.uk/skiclub/gui...?intGuideID=24 -- Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom) Ski Club of Great Britain - http://www.skiclub.co.uk All opinions expressed are personal and in no way represent those of the Ski Club. |
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