Buyer's remorse

I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are 182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers are
usually the fastest skis around me.

I went and got some Fibertex pads and have started swiping the skis with that
too to try to speed them up.

What do I do?

Re-flex test them to see if they're the right length/stiffness for me?

Keep waxing to get layers into the ski and hope that they will speed up over
time?

Remove the old NNN bindings from my old Fischers and put Pilot bindings on them
so I can race on the old pair at the Birkie this year? ( My alpina boots are
shot and will disintegrate soon and I upgraded to Pilot boots this year along
with the new sticks)

I'm very frustrated because usually, even with poor fitness, I have great skis
and usually finish somewhere above halfway in my age group. This COL Loppet was
a death march disaster and my skis felt really slow. 513th of 650 people.
Ridiculous. I can always do better than 4' per k. Hell, I told my buddy to meet
me at the finish at a 4' per k time because that was a disaster time estimate.
5:09 per k? Absurd. And they seemed slow this afternoon with the correct wax
and moderate temps (20F). I'm basically afraid of my new skis. Help.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

I don't know about your new skis - what to do - hopefully someone will give
you some good advice. I would, however, urge you to mount some pilot
bindings on your old skis. Two reasons - they may end up being faster in
some conditions (hopefully, not all!) and it's always nice to have a second
pair for those days you don't want to use them (rock conditions, too lazy to
put wax of the day on the new ones, etc.) I invested the $90 on new pilot
bindings for my old skis w/ nnn and it's been worth it. Plus, I was able to
recycle the nnn bindings to my kids' skis. You'll never know if the new
ones are indeed slower than the old ones unless you do some side by side.

Hope you work out the new skis. For what it's worth, my new Atomic 11
classic skis aren't as fast as my old ones nor some of the people I ski
with. I've waxed them several times, but I'm going to reserve judgement for
a while yet.

Grissy

"Eric W. Chandler" wrote in message
...
I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that
have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are
182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the
paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly
shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at
the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I
skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with
CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then
CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then
Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that
race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers
are
usually the fastest skis around me.

I went and got some Fibertex pads and have started swiping the skis with
that
too to try to speed them up.

What do I do?

Re-flex test them to see if they're the right length/stiffness for me?

Keep waxing to get layers into the ski and hope that they will speed up
over
time?

Remove the old NNN bindings from my old Fischers and put Pilot bindings on
them
so I can race on the old pair at the Birkie this year? ( My alpina boots
are
shot and will disintegrate soon and I upgraded to Pilot boots this year
along
with the new sticks)

I'm very frustrated because usually, even with poor fitness, I have great
skis
and usually finish somewhere above halfway in my age group. This COL
Loppet was
a death march disaster and my skis felt really slow. 513th of 650 people.
Ridiculous. I can always do better than 4' per k. Hell, I told my buddy to
meet
me at the finish at a 4' per k time because that was a disaster time
estimate.
5:09 per k? Absurd. And they seemed slow this afternoon with the correct
wax
and moderate temps (20F). I'm basically afraid of my new skis. Help.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

It is incredibly rare to have a pair of skis "race" fast right out of
the box. It usually takes a few waxings and skiings to really get them
going.

Other thoughts. Is the grind right for the conditions? I know the
Fischer folks say their skis are ground correctly right out of the box,
but on my cold skis, I had to have them reground (finer and shallower,
thanks nordic ultratune) to make them fast. Lastly is just the basic
base prep. Have at it with the fibertex, omniprep, brass brushing, Swix
shaver, whatever you use to early season prep the skis.

If the skis are the right flex and you have put in the sweat equity to
get the bases ready, then you may just have a pair of slow skis (rare
in these days of quality control, etc.).

I also would mount up your old skis with new bindings. Always nice to
have a backup, rock, warm ski available.

Dan Vargo (who needs fast skis to make up for his poor fitness)
SLC, UT

In article , Eric W.
Chandler wrote:

I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are 182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the
paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with
CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers are
usually the fastest skis around me.

I went and got some Fibertex pads and have started swiping the skis with that
too to try to speed them up.

What do I do?

Re-flex test them to see if they're the right length/stiffness for me?

Keep waxing to get layers into the ski and hope that they will speed up over
time?

Remove the old NNN bindings from my old Fischers and put Pilot bindings on
them
so I can race on the old pair at the Birkie this year? ( My alpina boots are
shot and will disintegrate soon and I upgraded to Pilot boots this year along
with the new sticks)

I'm very frustrated because usually, even with poor fitness, I have great skis
and usually finish somewhere above halfway in my age group. This COL Loppet
was
a death march disaster and my skis felt really slow. 513th of 650 people.
Ridiculous. I can always do better than 4' per k. Hell, I told my buddy to
meet
me at the finish at a 4' per k time because that was a disaster time estimate.
5:09 per k? Absurd. And they seemed slow this afternoon with the correct wax
and moderate temps (20F). I'm basically afraid of my new skis. Help.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

Eric:

The Fischer website lists a size 187 - 192cm "stiff" ski for your
weight. A 182cm "stiff" ski is for weight up to 143lbs. You may want
to talk to the shop that sold them to you.

MOO,
Matt

Eric W. Chandler wrote:

I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are 182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers are
usually the fastest skis around me.

I went and got some Fibertex pads and have started swiping the skis with that
too to try to speed them up.

What do I do?

Re-flex test them to see if they're the right length/stiffness for me?

Keep waxing to get layers into the ski and hope that they will speed up over
time?

Remove the old NNN bindings from my old Fischers and put Pilot bindings on them
so I can race on the old pair at the Birkie this year? ( My alpina boots are
shot and will disintegrate soon and I upgraded to Pilot boots this year along
with the new sticks)

I'm very frustrated because usually, even with poor fitness, I have great skis
and usually finish somewhere above halfway in my age group. This COL Loppet was
a death march disaster and my skis felt really slow. 513th of 650 people.
Ridiculous. I can always do better than 4' per k. Hell, I told my buddy to meet
me at the finish at a 4' per k time because that was a disaster time estimate.
5:09 per k? Absurd. And they seemed slow this afternoon with the correct wax
and moderate temps (20F). I'm basically afraid of my new skis. Help.


Eric "Shmo" Chandler
Duluth, MN

Several people who should have known better than I had dogs for skis at
that race. It was cold, certainly, so you should have chosen a pair
that had lots of wax and lots of kilometers. In cold snow, any hairs or
roughness catches on the hard snow crystals and really slows you down.
If you don't have a dedicated cold snow ski in your quiver, wax them all
and test to see what works.

Though skis are fit to camber stiffness not length, I too would be a
little suspicious of a short ski, so out of the norm. Even if it flexed
properly for you on the bench, you are supporting all that weight on a
shorter running edge.

I selected a pair of last years RS-10's since they had the most K's and
a soft tip for the COLL. I had really fast skis. A friend who is more
fanatical than I took his quiver to the course the night before and
found an old pair of madshus that seemed to be fastest. He later
complained of slow skis as well, thinking they we a little too soft,
especially for the lake. Another friend who dropped out had decent skis
during his warm-up, but then had the holmenkol guy brush them with a
STEEL brush just before the race and they turned into dogs. You can
brush too aggressively, esp with steel. In defense of the homenkol guy,
he probably was faced with tons of people who had not done near enough
brushing and really improved their skis. Ken had proably done quite enough.

1)182cm seems too short for someone of your weight, unless you are
really short yourself. Shorter length means loss of glide length.
Skier height does play a factor in ski choice, following weight. Maybe
the shop reversed it. For example, I'm ~170 lbs and use 192-195s because
of being 6'2" (188cm). Were I shorter that weight would dictate a
shorter ski at my ability level.

2)Wax: it appears that you applied 3 layers of base prep and only one
layer of CH4 for a very cold day (the powder is more of an additive).
That seems backwards. From what I read and have (limited) experience
with, less base prep and two to four cold layers of are needed. In the
current Master Skier, Ian Harvey of Toko says that the cold layers have
to ironed in warm enough that they look dark and allowed to cool, rather
than scraped warm. Brush copper (Toko) then nylon.

3)Reports are that the snow slowed with successive waves.

Sorry I missed you (I was the guy with earmuffs at the buses asking
people to load from the back).

Gene Goldenfeld


"Eric W. Chandler" wrote:

I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that have
only the "speed tip" not the tail. I'm about 175-180 pounds and they are 182
cm long and theoretically the right flex for me via the shop that did the paper
test on a metal surface. I'm suspicious since they are significantly shorter
than my old Fischer RCS's I bought in 99.

My fitness isn't great, but it's better than last year. I skied 3:21 at the
birkie last year. I just got back from the City of Lakes Loppet and I skied
over 5 minutes per k and it took me 3 hours to go 35k. I had cleaned with CH10,
3 times BP-88 with bronze and nylon brushing in between each layer, then CH4,
then the CH3 Cold powder and CH3 again. Brushed with bronze and then Nylon.
These are all the layers of wax I got into these new skis before that race.
They were the slowest skis relative to the wave around me. My old Fischers are
usually the fastest skis around me.

Hey Eric,

Don't despair. Here are a number of thoughts.

1) 182 seems a bit short, but I don't think that is the big issue. If
the flex is Ok, then 182 ought to do just fine at your weight except
in very soft conditions.

2) The big deal, as mentioned, is that brand new skis are rarely fast.
This is especially true in cold conditions. Skis need to be waxed and
skied many times before they become fast. Multiple
waxing/scraping/skiing sessions wears down the hairs, smooths out the
base, whatever, it definitely makes the skis faster.

3) Structure, not sure what structure your skis came with, but with
snow that cold, your skis may have had too much.

4) Absolutely, mount up bindings on your old skis. That way you'll
have a pair of skis for lesser conditions, or soft conditions, or cold
conditions, whatever. You'll be able to test both pairs and generally
come up with better skis on race day.

5) Lots of people race on old skis. In the lead pack at the Pepsi
last weekend, Loomis and Schultz were on 4 year old skis, Walzcak was
on 8-9 year old skis and I was on 10+ year old skis (all Fischers, not
sure what vintage Wubbel's Atomics or Swank's Rossis were).

I'm sure it's frustrating to spend a pile of money for brand-new fancy
skis that are slower than your old ones. But, given time, I'm sure
your skis will prove themselves.

Brian

In article , Eric
W. Chandler wrote:
I bought new Fischer Skatecut RCS's this year. They are the 2003's that have

Here's something from the Fast Wax site re their Extreme White for 8F
and colder. The advice about cooling thier cold glide wax at room temps
contradicts others' guidance, but maybe it's particular to FW.

***Special note:
Here are a few tips on using HS-0 Extreme White from the experts who
developed this very popular cold wax through years of testing in
Minnesota's coldest snow conditions:
1. Never use a metal brush for a final polish on your ski finished with
HS-0 White.
After your second layer of White wax is brushed out, you can use a fiber
cloth, or better yet, a horsehair brush, to gently polish the base to a
glossy finish. Your goal is the smoothest possible base to reduce
friction created by sharp crystals of very cold snow.
2. HS-0 White performs best when allowed to cool before scraping. A
sharp scraper and a stiff nylon brush will make removal much easier.
Always allow your skis to cool at room temperature. Putting them
outside while still warm will draw the wax back out of the ski. Skis
waxed with HS-0 White and kept at room temperature until they are
finished and cooled do not need to be rebrushed after they have been
exposed to cold.

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

2)Wax: it appears that you applied 3 layers of base prep and only one
layer of CH4 for a very cold day (the powder is more of an additive).
That seems backwards. From what I read and have (limited) experience
with, less base prep and two to four cold layers of are needed. In the
current Master Skier, Ian Harvey of Toko says that the cold layers have
to ironed in warm enough that they look dark and allowed to cool, rather
than scraped warm. Brush copper (Toko) then nylon.

On Fri, 06 Feb 2004 07:52:12 -0500, Matt Locker
wrote:

Eric:

The Fischer website lists a size 187 - 192cm "stiff" ski for your
weight. A 182cm "stiff" ski is for weight up to 143lbs.

Yep. I am 155-160 and happy with my new 187 SCS skis. 182 sounds too
short for the original poster's weight.

-- Robert

In article , jim farrell wrote:
Though skis are fit to camber stiffness not length, I too would be a
little suspicious of a short ski, so out of the norm. Even if it flexed
properly for you on the bench, you are supporting all that weight on a
shorter running edge.

I think flex is the most important thing (i.e., how the ski
distributes the weight over the length of the ski) rather than length
(i.e., which determines the average pressure on the snow). Note that
Fischer only makes lengths from 172 to 197 (i.e., a 15% difference),
yet recommends them for weights from 90 to 200+ lb (i.e., at least a
factor 2 in weight). If you put 220 lb on a 192 (within Fischer's
guidelines), you are applying much more pressure on the snow than with
175 lb (Eric) on a 182.

But, if the flex isn't right, then you have a problem. Eric, you might
consider getting the flex evaluated by an independent person (i.e.,
another shop). Then, if you feel like you really have been sold a
mis-fit ski, go back to the original shop, armed with Fischer's
official size chart. That should give you ammunition if you should
need to get a different ski.

Brian

FYI, size chart available at
http://www.fischerskis.com/nordic/faqs/#10
lb cm flex
RCS SKATECUT 90-110 172 MED
RCR SKATECUT 100-120 177 MED
SCS SKATECUT 110-140 177 STIFF
110-130 182 MED
130-155 182 STIFF
120-140 187 MED
140-175 187 STIFF
130-165 192 MED
155-220 192 STIFF
185 197 STIFF