a little leg move from Carl Swenson

I finally got into the "knee drive" move in skating: Drive the knee down
toward the tip of the ski.

I didn't get it until I analyzed a video clip of Carl Swenson legs which
Andrew Lee recommended that I download from JanneG's website:
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/Swenson.mpg (3.6 MB)
Swenson is doing V2A / Open Field Skate / 2-skate on flat terrain in the
segment :07-:11 seconds. On his pole-recovery-side ski, he starts the first
phase of his leg-push with his hip roughly over his ankle. Soon he starts a
distinct forward-step move with his next leg, and at the same time _flexes_
his ankle so that his lower leg and knee go down and forward about 10 cm / 4
inch relative to his ankle. This brings his hip forward too, about 11 cm /
4.5 inch, for the start of the second phase of the leg-push, so his
recovery-side ankle is about 11 cm / 4.5 inch behind his hip for the
push-off and weight transfer to the poling-side ski.

* I had always thought of forward-ankle-flex as a position, and I worked all
last season to achieve it. But for Swenson it's a move (or two).

* the knee joint does _not_ flex during this move. (If it did flex, then his
hip joint would not have moved forward as much as his knee joint). Swenson's
"knee drive" move is _not_ about knee bend -- actually his knee-joint
resists bending during this move (maybe even extends a little bit?).

* The result of this move is that his hip and knee joints are in optimal
_biomechanical_ configuration relative to the ankle and center of the ski --
to push out against the snow with maximum power through the second phase of
the skate-push.

Actually Swenson makes _two_ ankle-flex / knee-drive moves in each leg-push,
for a total of four in each full stroke-cycle of V2 Alternate / Open Field
Skate / 2-skate. Swenson starts the other one at the moment his next ski is
_landed_ in the snow (or sometimes an instant before it lands). That other
move I described above looks much bigger, so I think I'll focus on that for
now.

So I tried Swenson's knee-drive move in my own no-poles skating, and I got
so excited about the extra power I was feeling from it that I couldn't
resist continuing to flex my ankle -- so I strained my shin muscle in the
first fifteen minutes of my workout and had to stop skating and switch to
poling. Since then I've been integrating it better into my skating on
pavement and snow.

Ken

P.S. The technique of skating is so rich -- here's some more ideas from
those four seconds of Carl Swenson:

* in a normal walking half-step with the goal of "gaining" 30 cm / 12 inches
on the ground, the ankle joint is extending. But Swenson makes a "sneaky"
low step with ankle flexing -- which moves his hip forward earlier. So his
goal must be different . . .

* the real point of Swenson's forward-step is to place his hip and knee into
optimal _biomechanical_ alignment relative to his ankle and the center of
the ski, to apply maximum power through the second phase of the leg-push.

* Some coaches seem to get knee-flex and ankle-flex confused sometimes -- or
seem to assume that they should both flex flex together, or both extend
together -- which is often true of elite Classic techniques, but often not
true for elite skating. Like in Swenson's skate-leg-push, the ankle flexes
but the knee joint remains stable (in the big move in first phase of push),
or the ankle flexes and the knee extends (in the small move at ski-landing).

* Vordenberg mentioned knee-drive in his January 13 post to this newsgroup
on "Skate Technique USSA", but somehow it didn't hit me then -- I think
because there it was called a "position", so I thought it was a different
way of talking about forward-ankle-flex position or forward-hips position,
which I already agreed with and was already working on and starting to
benefit from.

* even just the leg-push of Skating is not so simple. The obvious way to
push with the leg against the snow is to _extend_ all the joints to
continuously lengthen the leg: But in Swenson's skate-push, the ankle-joint
_flexes_ during the first phase, and extends only in the second phase.
Three-dimensional and non-intuitive.

The big joke in ski technique: Classic is more complicated than Skating.
________________________________________

Ken Roberts wrote:
I finally got into the "knee drive" move in skating: Drive the knee
down toward the tip of the ski.

I didn't get it until I analyzed a video clip of Carl Swenson legs
which Andrew Lee recommended that I download from JanneG's website:
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/Swenson.mpg (3.6 MB)
Swenson is doing V2A / Open Field Skate / 2-skate on flat terrain in
the segment :07-:11 seconds. On his pole-recovery-side ski, he starts
the first phase of his leg-push with his hip roughly over his ankle.
Soon he starts a distinct forward-step move with his next leg, and at
the same time _flexes_ his ankle so that his lower leg and knee go
down and forward about 10 cm / 4 inch relative to his ankle. This
brings his hip forward too, about 11 cm /
4.5 inch, for the start of the second phase of the leg-push, so his
recovery-side ankle is about 11 cm / 4.5 inch behind his hip for the
push-off and weight transfer to the poling-side ski.

* I had always thought of forward-ankle-flex as a position, and I
worked all last season to achieve it. But for Swenson it's a move
(or two).

* the knee joint does _not_ flex during this move. (If it did flex,
then his hip joint would not have moved forward as much as his knee
joint). Swenson's "knee drive" move is _not_ about knee bend --
actually his knee-joint resists bending during this move (maybe even
extends a little bit?).

* The result of this move is that his hip and knee joints are in
optimal _biomechanical_ configuration relative to the ankle and
center of the ski -- to push out against the snow with maximum power
through the second phase of the skate-push.

Actually Swenson makes _two_ ankle-flex / knee-drive moves in each
leg-push, for a total of four in each full stroke-cycle of V2
Alternate / Open Field Skate / 2-skate. Swenson starts the other one
at the moment his next ski is _landed_ in the snow (or sometimes an
instant before it lands). That other move I described above looks
much bigger, so I think I'll focus on that for now.

So I tried Swenson's knee-drive move in my own no-poles skating, and
I got so excited about the extra power I was feeling from it that I
couldn't resist continuing to flex my ankle -- so I strained my shin
muscle in the first fifteen minutes of my workout and had to stop
skating and switch to poling. Since then I've been integrating it
better into my skating on pavement and snow.

Ken

P.S. The technique of skating is so rich -- here's some more ideas
from those four seconds of Carl Swenson:

* in a normal walking half-step with the goal of "gaining" 30 cm / 12
inches on the ground, the ankle joint is extending. But Swenson makes
a "sneaky" low step with ankle flexing -- which moves his hip forward
earlier. So his goal must be different . . .

* the real point of Swenson's forward-step is to place his hip and
knee into optimal _biomechanical_ alignment relative to his ankle and
the center of the ski, to apply maximum power through the second
phase of the leg-push.

* Some coaches seem to get knee-flex and ankle-flex confused
sometimes -- or seem to assume that they should both flex flex
together, or both extend together -- which is often true of elite
Classic techniques, but often not true for elite skating. Like in
Swenson's skate-leg-push, the ankle flexes but the knee joint remains
stable (in the big move in first phase of push), or the ankle flexes
and the knee extends (in the small move at ski-landing).

* Vordenberg mentioned knee-drive in his January 13 post to this
newsgroup on "Skate Technique USSA", but somehow it didn't hit me
then -- I think because there it was called a "position", so I
thought it was a different way of talking about forward-ankle-flex
position or forward-hips position, which I already agreed with and
was already working on and starting to benefit from.

* even just the leg-push of Skating is not so simple. The obvious way
to push with the leg against the snow is to _extend_ all the joints to
continuously lengthen the leg: But in Swenson's skate-push, the
ankle-joint _flexes_ during the first phase, and extends only in the
second phase. Three-dimensional and non-intuitive.

The big joke in ski technique: Classic is more complicated than
Skating. ________________________________________

Wouldn't a skier who try to remember all these details about skating
technique be very slow while skating? It takes time to go through the
agenda. I prefer classic.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

"Terje Henriksen" wrote____________

Wouldn't a skier who try to remember all these details about skating
technique be very slow while skating? It takes time to go through the
agenda. I prefer classic.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

I almost think I prefer classic too, but you could analyze kick and glide
just as much, I'd reckon. Ever read the Master Skier (or Norske
equivalent)? But, I'll go a bit further than you - if I tried to analyze my
technique even half of this level of detail, I'd not only be slow (already
am!), I'd fall down.

The best way I've learned to improve technique (both) is to follow a good
skier and just try to almost subconsciously emulate them or have a qualified
instructor critique, demonstrate and /or physically correct while on skis,
on snow. I just can't see this level of detail in video clips, nor
understand what I'm seeing or reading about.

I do enjoy reading technique analysis though and every once in a while pick
up a little detail which helps. But skiing copy-cat is the best way I
think.

Camilo

Camilo wrote
if I tried to analyze my technique even half of this level
of detail, I'd not only be slow, I'd fall down.

And there's no need to analyze in the level I gave -- sorry, I should have
made that explicit. That's why the first thing in my post is a link to a
_video_ that focuses on the knee-drive ankle-flex move:
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/Technic/Swenson.mpg at :07-:11 seconds.

Once you look at the video, and know _what_ to look for, maybe with some
slow-motion control, I think you will easily see the knee-drive move.

And my experience at the ski center last weekend, I would look at other
skaters and in two seconds could not help notice if they were doing it or
not. Interesting that of the athletic mid-packers skating casually, about
80% were not showing the knee-drive. Then we went over to the biathlon
area to watch the World Cup B event, and 90% of racers warming up were
showing the knee-drive move.

The best way I've learned to improve technique (both)
is to follow a good skier and just try to almost subconsciously emulate
them

Yes that's best for learning some things, especially obvious moves that are
visible from the rear -- but the knee-drive move does not fit that.

The tricky problem with looking at videos or watching other skiers is that
cross-country skiing techniques are so complicated that you don't know what
to look for. As Zachary Caldwell pointed out, you naturally focus on the
obvious moves, and miss what's really critical for power. Your perceptual
attention tends to get "grabbed" by arms and head ("nose") -- but the major
drivers of skating power are down in the interior: hips and knees.

Yes, subconscious emulation is good -- once you've sensitized your
subconscious to the subtle critical moves.

Ken
________________________________________
Camilo wrote
"Terje Henriksen" wrote____________

Wouldn't a skier who try to remember all these details about skating
technique be very slow while skating? It takes time to go through the
agenda. I prefer classic.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

I almost think I prefer classic too, but you could analyze kick and glide
just as much, I'd reckon. Ever read the Master Skier (or Norske
equivalent)? But, I'll go a bit further than you - if I tried to analyze
my
technique even half of this level of detail, I'd not only be slow (already
am!), I'd fall down.

The best way I've learned to improve technique (both) is to follow a good
skier and just try to almost subconsciously emulate them or have a
qualified
instructor critique, demonstrate and /or physically correct while on skis,
on snow. I just can't see this level of detail in video clips, nor
understand what I'm seeing or reading about.

I do enjoy reading technique analysis though and every once in a while
pick
up a little detail which helps. But skiing copy-cat is the best way I
think.

Camilo

Don't think the point is to try and analyze each move while skating,
but to work on one aspect at a time. I was reading that, during the NZ
camp this summer, the development skiers were only working on dynamic
compression during classic training. This is because all other basic
aspects of their skiing (poling, weight transfer, etc.) are good. I
think most of us, even if were not thinking about it, pick out
something every now and then to work on. Do it until it is habit, then
move to something else. I like these tips that people bring forward.

Dan Vargo
SLC, UT

In article , Camilo
wrote:

"Terje Henriksen" wrote____________

Wouldn't a skier who try to remember all these details about skating
technique be very slow while skating? It takes time to go through the
agenda. I prefer classic.

--
Terje Henriksen
Kirkenes

I almost think I prefer classic too, but you could analyze kick and glide
just as much, I'd reckon. Ever read the Master Skier (or Norske
equivalent)? But, I'll go a bit further than you - if I tried to analyze my
technique even half of this level of detail, I'd not only be slow (already
am!), I'd fall down.

The best way I've learned to improve technique (both) is to follow a good
skier and just try to almost subconsciously emulate them or have a qualified
instructor critique, demonstrate and /or physically correct while on skis,
on snow. I just can't see this level of detail in video clips, nor
understand what I'm seeing or reading about.

I do enjoy reading technique analysis though and every once in a while pick
up a little detail which helps. But skiing copy-cat is the best way I
think.

Camilo

Terje Henriksen wrote
Wouldn't a skier who try to remember all these details
about skating technique be very slow while skating?
It takes time to go through the agenda. I prefer classic.

Yes it makes no sense to try to consciously remember all those details: It
wouldn't be any fun, and anyway it wouldn't work, because our conscious mind
is not very good at controlling bodily motion.

But our unconscious brain is much bigger than the areas correlated with
conscious memory. There are regions in the brain that are specialized for
body-motion control which are more powerful than most of the artificial
computers in the world. The unconscious brain modules of most athletic
skiers is easily capable of remembering lots and lots of details of the
complexities of cross-country ski techniques. The hard part is to get the
moves and feelings _into_ the unconscious brain, and getting the right
_version_ of the moves in there and activated (and de-activating some of the
wrong versions).

My experience with the knee-drive / ankle-flex move is that once I tried it
and _felt_ the power, there was no worry about remembering. I think it's
like once my unconscious muscle-control centers experiences the impact of
that biomechanical alignment of hip ahead of ankle with low knee, it becomes
a little "addiction".

It takes time to go through the agenda. I prefer classic.

If learning to skate were like an agenda, I wouldn't want it either. But for
me what it's about is stages of getting my unconscious mind in touch with
new kinds of neuro-muscular feelings and perceptions -- surprising and
magical feelings which Classic does not deliver. The main role for my
conscious mind (or the mind of my coach) is to _set_up_ special situations
that are favorable for my unconscious mind to acquire and activate those
specific feelings.

Another key role for a gifted coach is to offer a _sequence_ of learning,
where each stage delivers a new special joy, and also prepares the
configuration of the unconscious brain for the next stage.

Ken

Ken - I think the knee drive you're talking about is a great example of a
fairly tiny technique detail that a person can look at and analyze and then
concentrate on in skiing. It's also so essential and really, basic to all
skiing.. I've also noticed as you have that, although it's a pretty basic
factor, it's missed by a lot of people. I know for myself, I really need to
concentrate on keeping that ankle flexed and "drive the knee" (that's how I
think of it for myself - push that knee forward, do it by flexing the
ankle). When I'm tired or lazy, I'm sure my ankle is closer to 90 degrees
instead of flexed forward aggressively. I also know that when I concentrate
on it I feel much more effective in both the push and glide, - and
committment to one ski and balance - in both techniques. Another couple of
mental images I use - in general - which seem to get me into a better stance
overall are "dynamic" and "athletic". There's nothing specific in those
terms, but for my mind, if I think of those two words, I just seem to get me
in a better position. In my mentality, they pull me away from "lazy" and
"complacent" which is what I am when I'm not committing and getting over the
ski.

As a contrast to this, I always have a hard time figuring out and
visualizing (or feeling) for my self the concept of "high, forward hips". I
know I don't want my rear end in the "toilet position" but to me this isn't
as easy to feel, do or understand as the concepts of "knee drive", "flexed
ankle", or "get over the ski" . I also think that a good knee and ankle
position almost brings the hips into (at least close to) the correct
position. Because, if I'm concentrating on driving the knee and flexing the
ankle, nobody ever says my hips are wrong.

Cam

Hi Ken-
When are you and Sharon coming out? She might be a
little disappointed in her powder fix if you're coming
out this week. After having a nirvana-like October
and November, powder is pretty hard to come by in the
SLC mountains right now. No big storms in sight
between now and the new year.

Current ski conditions:
Mt Dell: evaporated- it got rained on two weeks ago,
and it's temporarily history, but will be back when it
snows (I hope!!)

White Pine (Park City)- still there, but icy. They
don't have the farm groomed, so it's limited to about
8Km of track

Millcreek- due to its refrigerator-like properties,
still there, but icy, especially the bottom two miles.
Makes for an exciting downhill trip...

Solitude- currently the best bet. Good snowpack due
to its altitude (about 8,000-8,500 ft). The altitude
also makes it fun to go up the hills. Also, in my
humble opinion, the prettiest nordic area in the
state, up in the pines.

Soldier Hollow- also a very good bet. They laid down
a lot of artificial snow when the making was good, and
Heber seems to be cold enough to hold it this year.

Daniels-- good question. Let me know what you find

Maybe you and Sharon will bring some storms out with
you? (although they usually come from the west, not
the east!!)

Chris Cline

PS- maybe Dan knows about Daniels??

--- Ken Roberts
wrote:

Dan -

Sharon is dragging me out to Salt Lake for her
powder-turns skiing fix, but
you can be sure I'm going to bring my skating skis.

I'm thinking I will finally get check out the
skating at Daniels Summit.

Maybe I will at last succeed at skating all the way
up Mill Creek without
stopping (actually I'll happy if I make it with two
stops).

Be fun to meet you and other Salt Lake skiers while
I'm there. I'll be
skiing with some electric-pink lycra from the Jan 2
race at Lake Placid.

Ken









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SoHo is outstanding, was there on Sunday. Solitude also outstanding,
but at 8500 ft can be a bit rougher. Haven't spoken to anyone who has
been to Daniel's Summitt, but usually have reports on the TUNA website
(http://www.utahnordic.com). Would check that before coming out to get
more up to date info.

Dan Vargo
SLC, UT

In article m, Chris
Cline wrote:

Hi Ken-
When are you and Sharon coming out? She might be a
little disappointed in her powder fix if you're coming
out this week. After having a nirvana-like October
and November, powder is pretty hard to come by in the
SLC mountains right now. No big storms in sight
between now and the new year.

Current ski conditions:
Mt Dell: evaporated- it got rained on two weeks ago,
and it's temporarily history, but will be back when it
snows (I hope!!)

White Pine (Park City)- still there, but icy. They
don't have the farm groomed, so it's limited to about
8Km of track

Millcreek- due to its refrigerator-like properties,
still there, but icy, especially the bottom two miles.
Makes for an exciting downhill trip...

Solitude- currently the best bet. Good snowpack due
to its altitude (about 8,000-8,500 ft). The altitude
also makes it fun to go up the hills. Also, in my
humble opinion, the prettiest nordic area in the
state, up in the pines.

Soldier Hollow- also a very good bet. They laid down
a lot of artificial snow when the making was good, and
Heber seems to be cold enough to hold it this year.

Daniels-- good question. Let me know what you find

Maybe you and Sharon will bring some storms out with
you? (although they usually come from the west, not
the east!!)

Chris Cline

PS- maybe Dan knows about Daniels??

--- Ken Roberts
wrote:

Dan -

Sharon is dragging me out to Salt Lake for her
powder-turns skiing fix, but
you can be sure I'm going to bring my skating skis.

I'm thinking I will finally get check out the
skating at Daniels Summit.

Maybe I will at last succeed at skating all the way
up Mill Creek without
stopping (actually I'll happy if I make it with two
stops).

Be fun to meet you and other Salt Lake skiers while
I'm there. I'll be
skiing with some electric-pink lycra from the Jan 2
race at Lake Placid.

Ken









__________________________________________________
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Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
http://mail.yahoo.com

Thanks for your reports, Chris + Dan.

Chris Cline wrote:
No big storms in sight between now and the new year.

Yes, we used to come over New Years weekend, but we found that conditions
were unreliable -- though we always figured out how to have a good time
anyway. Now Sharon waits for the Martin Luther King holiday.

Dan wrote:
SoHo is outstanding

Good to hear -- is that a vote for snowmaking?

One reason we choose Utah is lots of different kinds of options. (also
because when the Wasatch backcountry snow is good, it's great).

If all else fails, we'll just get on I-15 and drive north to Idaho. Or
south to the national parks. Like a few years ago conditions were bad in the
Wasatch, so on New Years Day we rented rubber suits and hiked into Zion
canyon. And I am salivating at the thought of an excuse drive south and hike
or ski down in Bryce, with some winter white to highlight the red and yellow
rocks.

Ken