If this is your first visit, be sure to check out the FAQ by clicking the link above. You may have to register before you can post: click the register link above to proceed. To start viewing messages, select the forum that you want to visit from the selection below. |
|
|
Thread Tools | Display Modes |
#1
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
Hi,
My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits. I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can anybody share any thoughts? Thanks, Larry |
Ads |
#2
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
Your story is why some of us (and others with far more knowledge)
suggest staying away from heavy rollerskis. They exaggerate existing problems and force the skier to compensate to even get close to good technique. The short answer is to get (or demo) something lighter, such as the Marwe 610 or similar, and adjust your terrain accordingly. That will allow you to see what's technique, what's muscular and what, if anything, is anatomical, and develop from there. I've seen physically and aerobically strong, experienced skiers go from lousy technique on 150s to looking like real skiers in a matter of minutes by making the change, but have never seen anyone develop good technique on heavy rollerskis. rm Larry wrote: Hi, My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits. I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can anybody share any thoughts? Thanks, Larry |
#3
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
I have the 150 SC, as tall-man's-skaters. Still very much in the infant
stages of getting to grips with them (walking pace at best). I have a brake on one, which hangs worse. The solutions seems to be a cleaverly placed elastic band from the top of your boot to the rear axle area. You can fine-tune the preload and progressiveness in various ways. I've also had some good experiments with a road bike's innertube cut to strips. My Crosskates also had a bit of hang, which I solved with thin elastic band normally used for clothes. Due to my low mileage on the Aero's, no permanent solution or ideal elastic band setup yet, but I'm getting new ideas as I'm typing. Quite frankly, I think the fact that hang exists is a very bad point for Jenex. They're suppost to be the best company in this business, and their brake design is just amazing. But they act like hang doesn't exist, and they offer no solution when you buy a pair? They KNOW the hang is going to be horrid. Recently after a ski trip I forgot the elastic band when I met a friend for a skate session. It was a non-session effectively. I ended up double some pushups and situps while my friend did laps skating. I found a tip to place a bolt in the Pilot binding to preload the spring more. I doubt that will suffice, and I am a fan of the adjustability of elastic bands. Once I have a good setup, I'll try to copy it with weather-proof bands from an outdoor sports store or something. Let us know how you progress, J "Larry" schreef in bericht oups.com... Hi, My setup is 150 Combies with NNN R3 skate bindings (red flexors, the stiffest). With 150ies being as heavy as they are, there is considerable rear wheel hang. The problem that I have is when my left rear wheel hits the ground, it acts as a rudder and swings the whole ski inward. This gets worse with speed. As a result, I end up with the left ski at almost zero angle to the direction of travel and, unless I'm turning right, a pretty weak push-off. This only happens with my left foot, which also happens to be my weaker foot in terms of stability. Technique-wise, I've tried to be deliberate about putting my left foot down as you would for a normal push-off, but I could actually see the ski swing inward right before the front wheel hits. I'm usually switching skis for even wheel wear, so it doesn't seem to be ski or binding-related, as it is always the left foot. So in my mind it's either something with the left boot or my technique. Can anybody share any thoughts? Thanks, Larry |
#4
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
Guys,
Thanks for your input. While I agree with your critisism of the Aeros, I keep them for the same reason others do - those big soft wheels that go on bad pavement and packed dirt. In my case, having to seek out and drive to good pavement would probably eliminate most of my rollerski time. And while I am concerned with technique to a certain extent, I just don't get enough time on real snow to use it and obsess about it. I've read about rubber bands here before and I guess I'll have to try that. Jan, do you basically tie your heel to the binding or do you allow for any play at all? However, here is the weird thing that I was mainly writing about: the hang looks to be about the same on both feet, but only the left ski swings inward as the rear wheel hits. I switch skis mid-session, and it is still the left one. |
#5
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
Hi, Larry
I skate on 150 combies too, and seem to have no technique problems you are describing, and the problems described here, too : http://www.nordicskiracer.com/cgi-bi...asp?NewsID=362 . I mean, this part : Sten had choice comments for the Jenex Aero 150. In short, he believed the heavy weight of the 150 was a major cause of many skier's technique problems. As we watched videos of our rollerskiing, most of the many Aero 150 rollerskiers exhibited the tendency to pick up their heal at the end of the push, turning the ski inward and forcing the foot and ski to take a convoluted path back to the skate position. This extra time threw off the timing of the skate moves. I didn't notice anything said above, and seem to know why : my rear wheels just hang only a little, when in the air, no more than my winter ski. When I place my roller onto the ground, the first wheel that touches it is the front one, or both at the same time. Some physics : What is the difference between the rollerskis and the skis? When you mount the binding to ski, you place it so the center of gravity of the ski coincides with the axle of the boot.That brings the moment of the gravity force of the ski to near zero. When you mount the binding to the rollerski, its center of gravity goes several cm behind the axle of the boot, which creates a conciderable moment of the gravity force, which makes the rear wheel to hang, when the rollerski is in the air. The heavier are the rollerskis and the further is center of gravity from then boot axle, the bigger is the moment of the force of gravity. The conclusion is : you need something to compensate this additional moment of the gravity force. Some (and me too) use pilot boots with SNS bindings (me with classic flexors, because skate flexors are even too stiff for pilot boots with my V2 Aero Combi. BTW, for V2 Aero 150 Skate one would probably need stiffer flexors, because they are shorter and center of gravity goes furhter back agains boot axle). Those who use pilot bindings with pilot boots have to stiffen the spring of the binding, as is shown here http://www.skiroll.it/tecnica/tips/a...acchiPilot.htm . And before the pilot era they had been making special _rollerski_ (the most stiffer) flexors for SNS bindings. As for that article in Nordicskiracer, I believe those skiers were using standard skate bindings with skate boots. And if your red flexors in your NNN bindings are ones intended to use with skate skis, not rollerskis, I am sure they are not stiff enough for rollerskis. I do not know whether Rottefella makes special flexors for rollerskis, but probably you could convert your standart flexors into stiffer rollerski ones. Try to stick some layers of glue onto the front of your flexors with a hot glue gun, until the flexors become stiff enough, so that your rollerskis do not hang under your boots, or hang just a little. These glue layers can be easely cut with a knife. This method was originally suggested by one russian skier for reviving old worn flexors, and I used it for that purpose. Hope that helps. |
#6
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
On Apr 24, 8:24 am, "
wrote: 3. Sten Fjelheim, coach of Northern Michigan U., showed us avariation of this that they use. They drill a very small holecrosswise through the heel of the boot sole, and then pass a length ofstainless bike spoke through it, and form small loops or hooks on eachend. They then use a rubber band fastened to the loop on one side,passed under the ski shaft, and fastned to the loop on the otherside. His favorite roller ski, that he uses this on, is the Marwe610, by the way, proving that rear wheel hang isn't an issue justaffecting the Aeros. After reading this I went out poleless on a pair of 610s and after awhile I'm thinking, What rear wheel hang is this guy talking about? Then I asked omeone with very direct knowledge of what Sten and the NMU skiers are using, and they said, No, they're not doing what that guy described on the newsgroup; they're using 610s just as they come. Maybe for the 150s he'd use a special setup like that, but not with the 610s. That's what I'm told. Since several years ago I used two versions of the 150s and then 125s, I can also speak from experience that these are not conducive to learning good technique or offering anything close to the feeling of stability typical of lighter rollerskis. Gene |
#7
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
On Apr 26, 10:13 pm, genegold at highstream dot net
wrote: On Apr 24, 8:24 am, " wrote: 3. Sten Fjelheim, coach of Northern Michigan U., showed us avariation of this that they use. They drill a very small holecrosswise through the heel of the boot sole, and then pass a length ofstainless bike spoke through it, and form small loops or hooks on eachend. They then use a rubber band fastened to the loop on one side,passed under the ski shaft, and fastned to the loop on the otherside. His favorite roller ski, that he uses this on, is the Marwe610, by the way, proving that rear wheel hang isn't an issue justaffecting the Aeros. After reading this I went out poleless on a pair of 610s and after awhile I'm thinking, What rear wheel hang is this guy talking about? Then I asked omeone with very direct knowledge of what Sten and the NMU skiers are using, and they said, No, they're not doing what that guy described on the newsgroup; they're using 610s just as they come. Maybe for the 150s he'd use a special setup like that, but not with the 610s. That's what I'm told. Since several years ago I used two versions of the 150s and then 125s, I can also speak from experience that these are not conducive to learning good technique or offering anything close to the feeling of stability typical of lighter rollerskis. Gene Dear Gene: Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when using the brake. Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer, lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which the rivets failed one by one. Randy |
#8
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
I'd also be interested hearing if the NMU team actually made the mod
you spoke of. I didn't see it in the photos of them rollerskiing and presumably word of the mod would have gotten around the midwest. You mentioned flexors. The change from SNS Profil to Pilot would definitely affect results. Can Pilot bindings now be used successfully on 150s without that ball bearing mod? Len Johnson recommended against it some years ago. Which were you using on the 610s? I'd suggest a longer test of the latter. I've seen this happen, where in a short test an Aero 150 skier will initially replicate their motions on 610s, raising the foot/leg much higher than necessary, and thus inducing a tail hanging effect. Only when prodded to keep their the skis as close to the ground as possible does it disappear. It'd be nice to see some video of good technique on 150s. The only one I've seen is of Lee Borowski's kid on one of the technique videos, and even he was raising the skis fairly high. rm " wrote: Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when using the brake. Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer, lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which the rivets failed one by one. Randy |
#9
|
|||
|
|||
Wheel drop/ski direction problem
On Apr 27, 1:36 am, wrote:
I'd also be interested hearing if the NMU team actually made the mod you spoke of. I didn't see it in the photos of them rollerskiing and presumably word of the mod would have gotten around the midwest. You mentioned flexors. The change from SNS Profil to Pilot would definitely affect results. Can Pilot bindings now be used successfully on 150s without that ball bearing mod? Len Johnson recommended against it some years ago. Which were you using on the 610s? I'd suggest a longer test of the latter. I've seen this happen, where in a short test an Aero 150 skier will initially replicate their motions on 610s, raising the foot/leg much higher than necessary, and thus inducing a tail hanging effect. Only when prodded to keep their the skis as close to the ground as possible does it disappear. It'd be nice to see some video of good technique on 150s. The only one I've seen is of Lee Borowski's kid on one of the technique videos, and even he was raising the skis fairly high. rm " wrote: Yep, Sten said that, at a weekend clinic for our team. I can ask him again when I see him in October, if you care to wait. I've only been on 610s once myself, and for a pretty short time, but the wheel hang didn't feel much different to me than I recall on my 150s, at the time unmodified. I've always used the 125 (stiffest) durometer flexors in the Salomon Profil bindings, however. The only time I've really needed something extra for more wheel hang on the skaters is when using the brake. Also, either I've learned a lot, or the newest version of the Aero chassis is a lot more stable than the original. I know it's longer, lighter, and a shade lower than the original riveted model, on which the rivets failed one by one. Randy- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - I don't know how many on the NMU team have used the technique Sten described to us. (Spoke wire through boot heel with rubber band around shaft) He was actually trialing a pair of V2 100 SR that weekend, and was not using the rubber band himself then. (He didn't care for the feel of the V2 100s, as I recall.) Anyway, consider it an option if heel drag's a problem, along with stiff flexors and the other light bungee technique I described earlier. Randy |
Thread Tools | |
Display Modes | |
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
Wheel wear - what's good? | [email protected] | Nordic Skiing | 11 | June 5th 05 04:52 PM |
Place with a Drop Off/Locker Room/Lunch Spot/Shuttle Stop at Keystone and Breck | vbenares | Alpine Skiing (moderated) | 4 | November 23rd 04 03:51 AM |
How to slow down rollerski wheel | Serge | Nordic Skiing | 0 | October 20th 04 03:26 AM |
Which direction should you push your leg when doing skating technique? | John Smith | Nordic Skiing | 5 | August 10th 04 01:55 PM |
Four wheel rollerskis | PBDoyle | Nordic Skiing | 2 | September 26th 03 02:47 AM |