double poling technique

htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThis is my first posting on this mailing list. I'm pretty new in cross country skiing. I live in the Netherlands, so here's no snow and no hills :-( /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEI train for the Birkebeinerrennet in Norway on march 19th. I do a lot of double poling workouts on my rollerskies, but unfortunately without technical coaching./DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEMy question is: Why isn't it good to 'sit' after the push. I see on tv that with double poling the knees aren't bent much while the upper body bends over so that the body hooks in about 90 degrees. Besides that I can see that the lower legs are pushed forward, so the body mass is lifted more to the back of the skies. /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWhen I try this technique the result is quite a pain in the lower back (also due to my 'spinal stenosis'). With some trial and error I found the best technique for my back (and speed);First get my hips and shoulders as high and forward as possible to get a good hang in my poles, and during the push moving into a more or less speedskating position (knees bends to almost 90 degrees, weight a littlebit on the back of the skies and relaxing shoulders. I can do extensive endurance double poling for at least 1,5 hour in about 9 miles/h (flat terrain), without hurting my back./DIV
DIV class=RTEIsn't it correct to say that bending your knees more makes a longer push possible? And isn't it so that shifting your weight to the back makes you glide faster, like downhill skiing?/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWill I gain much speed when I just try harder on the 'good technique'? I don't need to win the beauty contest on technique. I just want to go as fast as possible with the least effort :-)/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThanks for any advice,BRWilfred /DIV/divbr clear=allhrMSN Search, for accurate results! a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNL/2734??PS=47575" target="_top"click here/a /html

Welcome! What format are you using to send this? Text only is
preferable.

There has been a shift from straight-legged double poling to using the
legs more, ending up in a very partial squat. For example, look at the
video of the men's 50K race yesterday (e.g., last video at 1:30, 8:50,
etc.). Even though they are going slow because of the falling snow,
you'll see them bring their hips forward, sometimes come up on the balls
of the feet and then pole into the upper legs, creating a 1/4 squat.
Hands follow through to just past the hips and, if done quickly at the
end, it creates a final thrust forward with the feet (it can also be
done intentionally from the ankles, but from the arms is more stable).
All this creates more continuous power because it can be done more
quickly than the older style, and it can be done in a more relaxed way
when desired (such as in this race most of the time). It is also much
easier on the back, allowing it (and the legs) to stretch without having
to extend as far.

I don't think the push is longer, since the follow through is generally
shorter, depending on the speed and snow conditions. Rather, shorter
push is compensated for by higher turnover and more efficient use of the
upper legs, the strongest part of the body. Remember, poling is about
propulsion and has two key points: 1) starting down from an almost
vertical pole position (elbows flexed mid-range) aids in creating better
push off through the ski camber (in that sense, they are like crutches);
and 2) using the upper body helps increase the arm/hand acceleration
through the area where the poles become relatively horizontal and, thus,
where the most propulsion forward occurs. A great double pole demo to
watch is Kris Freeman in 2003:
http://avari181.mt.luth.se/pub2/WorldChamp-03/ -- WCRelayMen2.avi
(8:20-9:10).

Gene

Tall Willy wrote:

htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThis is my first posting on this mailing list. I'm pretty new in cross country skiing. I live in the Netherlands, so here's no snow and no hills :-( /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEI train for the Birkebeinerrennet in Norway on march 19th. I do a lot of double poling workouts on my rollerskies, but unfortunately without technical coaching./DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEMy question is: Why isn't it good to 'sit' after the push. I see on tv that with double poling the knees aren't bent much while the upper body bends over so that the body hooks in about 90 degrees. Besides that I can see that the lower legs are pushed forward, so the body mass is lifted more to the back of the skies. /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWhen I try this technique the result is quite a pain in the lower back (also due to my 'spinal stenosis'). With some trial and error I found the best technique for my back (and speed);First get my hips and shoulders as high and forward as possible to get a good hang in my poles, and during the push moving into a more or less speedskating position (knees bends to almost 90 degrees, weight a littlebit on the back of the skies and relaxing shoulders. I can do extensive endurance double poling for at least 1,5 hour in about 9 miles/h (flat terrain), without hurting my back./DIV
DIV class=RTEIsn't it correct to say that bending your knees more makes a longer push possible? And isn't it so that shifting your weight to the back makes you glide faster, like downhill skiing?/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWill I gain much speed when I just try harder on the 'good technique'? I don't need to win the beauty contest on technique. I just want to go as fast as possible with the least effort :-)/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThanks for any advice,BRWilfred /DIV/divbr clear=allhrMSN Search, for accurate results! a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNL/2734??PS=47575" target="_top"click here/a /html

Willy,
start running some uphills, bikeride or something that builds your
legs. Birken is not that big doubleple/DP race.

As for you DP:
don't sit because it's to heavy(energy consuming) to go down and up
that much and it doesn't give you more. And it gives you a too low
frequency.
Focus on: hips up-forward, get over the poles and a snappy pull. Hands
end up around you knees. Not below. Don't bend your knees to 90degr
but less. look at elite skiers. but don't think too much on knee angle
bend.
Don't strech your arms too far forward. Pull imedeate when pole hit
the ground. Angle of elbow is 80-110 depending of how easy the glide
is. Beginners have often not enough agressive pulling. Remember
correct pole length: your height minus 30cm. Not longer.

Get a friend to film you DP. How is frequency and armangles and
bodyposition?
And finally: sign up for Marcialonga and Vasaloppet with your double
pole skills.



(Tall Willy) wrote in message ...
htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThis is my first posting on this mailing list. I'm pretty new in cross country skiing. I live in the Netherlands, so here's no snow and no hills :-( /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEI train for the Birkebeinerrennet in Norway on march 19th. I do a lot of double poling workouts on my rollerskies, but unfortunately without technical coaching./DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEMy question is: Why isn't it good to 'sit' after the push. I see on tv that with double poling the knees aren't bent much while the upper body bends over so that the body hooks in about 90 degrees. Besides that I can see that the lower legs are pushed forward, so the body mass is lifted more to the back of the skies. /DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWhen I try this technique the result is quite a pain
in the lower back (also due to my 'spinal stenosis'). With some trial
and error I found the best technique for my back (and speed);First get
my hips and shoulders as high and forward as possible to get a good
hang in my poles, and during the push moving into a more or less
speedskating position (knees bends to almost 90 degrees, weight a
littlebit on the back of the skies and relaxing shoulders. I can do
extensive endurance double poling for at least 1,5 hour in about 9
miles/h (flat terrain), without hurting my back./DIV
DIV class=RTEIsn't it correct to say that bending your knees more makes a longer push possible? And isn't it so that shifting your weight to the back makes you glide faster, like downhill skiing?/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEWill I gain much speed when I just try harder on the 'good technique'? I don't need to win the beauty contest on technique. I just want to go as fast as possible with the least effort :-)/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV
DIV class=RTEThanks for any advice,BRWilfred /DIV/divbr clear=allhrMSN Search, for accurate results! a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNL/2734??PS=47575" target="_top"click here/a /html

one mo
a good way to train DP is to find a long, straight and steep uphill
and DP it!
This teaches you
1-to use your abs as you should
2-keep frequency high

hips are not very up and forward on this training, and you might sit a
bit more. But hey, it's a training for the two point above


(Tall Willy) wrote in message ...
htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV

Hei Lars,

Thanks for your remarks.


start running some uphills, bikeride or something that builds your
legs. Birken is not that big doubleple/DP race.

I know. I'm looking forward to the first 20km of the race :-). Basically I
train the double poling, because it makes my arms stronger and I don't like
to do the striding on the rollerskis.
And ofcourse I train more than that. Roadbiking when the weather is good,
offroad biking, spinning and inside interval training on the cycletrainer.
So I train 3 times a week on a bike and one time on the rollerskies. I hope
that will do the job.

Get a friend to film you DP. How is frequency and armangles and
bodyposition?

I haven't seen myself on video, but I think the armangles are ok, but the
frequency might be to slow.

Wilfred

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Hi, Willy,

Welcome to the board.

Are you training with a group in the Netherlands? I have met some
keen skiers from there who do a lot of roller-ski-ing. If you like, I
could send you a link to the ski federation who could perhaps put you
in touch with some local skiers. You may find it easier to train with
a group. Technique advice in writing can be hard to visualise.

If you are finding it hard to copy the elite when you DP because of
your back problems - don't worry - just find what works for you. It
sounds like you are going well.

I was taught the same method as Lars, for racing. However, my son is a
good youth racer and excellent at DP (at least by British standards).
He goes up and down a lot in the legs. He plants the poles and then
compresses his legs and upper body, so dropping his body weight onto
the poles. This uses his body weight and abdominal and leg strength
to accelerate the poles backwards and himself forwards. He follows
through with the arms, and then bounces back for the next "stroke".
He is careful that his legs do not absorb the effort from the upper
body. He goes very fast. The down side of this is that he cannot keep
going; it is a sprint technique, so you will have to evolve this to
suit you for a marathon race.

You might like to try the following way to coach yourself for efficient
technique. This to use a trick some swimmers use. You play "golf".
Find yourself a straight piece of track you can DP, and mark the ends.
About 40 strokes long, although the exact length is not important.
Then (after your warm-up of course) ski as fast as you can. Time how
long it takes you and count how many strokes. Then add the strokes to
the time in seconds - that is your "handicap". Now set about improving
your handicap, which you can do either by going faster or by reducing
the number of strokes. I have found that a useful test of what works
and what doesn't. It does have the drawback that the technique that
works best over a short distance may be too tiring for a long distance,
so you will have to keep experimenting.

Also check out the course profile for the Birkebeinerrenn. I haven't
done the race but I have skied the second half of the course a number
of times. There is a long steep climb to start, and a long descent to
finish, so you need to keep working on other techniques too. The part
I have skied in the middle was undulating, and if the conditions are
right you may be able to DP a fair bit. Don't forget to practice
skiing with a rucksack.

Good luck and happy skiing

Alex

one mo
a good way to train DP is to find a long, straight and steep uphill
and DP it!

Have you ever been to the Netherlands? I live below sealevel so the closest
that looks like a hill is a bridge :-) But there's enough wind and straight
roads, so a DP against a heavy wind might help. I'll try.

And hurray, there's a lot of snow right now, so I skied for the first time
this winter.

Wilfred

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Hi Alex,

Thank you very much for your advice.

Are you training with a group in the Netherlands? I have met some
keen skiers from there who do a lot of roller-ski-ing. If you like, I
could send you a link to the ski federation who could perhaps put you
in touch with some local skiers. You may find it easier to train with
a group. Technique advice in writing can be hard to visualise.


If you mean the Nerove (www.rolskitotaal.nl), I already contacted them, but
unfortunately there aren't any serious rollerskiing in the north of the
Netherlands. There's a good group in Utrecht, but that's a two hours drive
for me. And the cross country group here in the neighbourhood is too
recreational. You have to know. Cross country skiing (langlaufen) is seen as
the wintersport activity for those loosers that don't can/dare downhill
skiing :-).
So I have to train alone and have know and than some technical tips from my
Norwegina friends during the holidays.

I was taught the same method as Lars, for racing. However, my son is a
good youth racer and excellent at DP (at least by British standards).
He goes up and down a lot in the legs. He plants the poles and then
compresses his legs and upper body, so dropping his body weight onto
the poles. This uses his body weight and abdominal and leg strength
to accelerate the poles backwards and himself forwards. He follows
through with the arms, and then bounces back for the next "stroke".
He is careful that his legs do not absorb the effort from the upper
body. He goes very fast. The down side of this is that he cannot keep
going; it is a sprint technique, so you will have to evolve this to
suit you for a marathon race.


The technique of your son sounds like mine, or at least as I wanted it to be
:-) Maybe he can find a way to train it for longer races. I might be
possible. This way of DP gives a lot of 'static' tension on the upper legs.
When I was younger I speed skated a lot and I had a lot of hard workouts to
overcome the pain of the static tension of a deep knee angle. And elite
speed marathon skaters have a deep knee angle (100degrees) for hours.


You might like to try the following way to coach yourself for efficient
technique. This to use a trick some swimmers use. You play "golf".
Find yourself a straight piece of track you can DP, and mark the ends.
About 40 strokes long, although the exact length is not important.
Then (after your warm-up of course) ski as fast as you can. Time how
long it takes you and count how many strokes. Then add the strokes to
the time in seconds - that is your "handicap". Now set about improving
your handicap, which you can do either by going faster or by reducing
the number of strokes. I have found that a useful test of what works
and what doesn't. It does have the drawback that the technique that
works best over a short distance may be too tiring for a long distance,
so you will have to keep experimenting.

Thanks. I'll try it after the Birkebeiner. For know the road here are
covered with snow. The heaviest snowfall in 50 years! So I can do some extra
skiing right in my backyard.


Also check out the course profile for the Birkebeinerrenn. I haven't
done the race but I have skied the second half of the course a number
of times. There is a long steep climb to start, and a long descent to
finish, so you need to keep working on other techniques too. The part
I have skied in the middle was undulating, and if the conditions are
right you may be able to DP a fair bit. Don't forget to practice
skiing with a rucksack.

I look so much to the profile that I can dream of it :-) Visualising the
race is almost as importance as a preparation as normal training, isn't it?
I know the tracks at Sjusjoen, but I also never did the first part.

Wilfred

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