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#11
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Ulrich Hausmann wrote:
I disagree. Teleskiing is difficult for those (us, me, 50 years of fixed heel skiing in the past) coming from alpine skiing - because you're staying way way too aggressively (compared to what is the correct position on teleski) on the skis. And you have to learn to stay more backward to have weight enough on the inner ski. Once, you learned this, all is easy. And, i'm pretty sure, initiating the turns by making a step is even easier. My alpine experience is one go on a dry slope and a week's holiday when I was 11, so I doubt it had *too* much influence on my re-learning to ski on free heels well into my 20s! Again, the case that my instructor friend (who comes from a free-heel background too, bought his first pair of alpine boots last year to pick up some paperwork for that) feels that teles are far harder to learn than other turns, and he's teaching parallel and tele to lots of people and seeing first hand how people do at it, and people with free heel touring background as well as alpine. "Once you have learned this all is easy" rather bypasses the problem about that being one of the difficult bits! ;-) Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
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#12
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Hi Uli
But: I disagree with him about offpist skiing with fixed heel. If you're well centered (for alpine skiing) over the ski This is what I mean't as a usual Alpine beginner it takes very long until you find out, that beeing "well centered over the ski" is essential - some will it never know. If you start with Telemark, beeing "well centered" is a basic skill, you learn before start to do the first stem turn. Florian |
#13
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Hi Uli
See the posting of Florian. But: I disagree with him about offpist skiing with fixed heel. If you're well centered (for alpine skiing) over the ski It seems you misunderstood me: Yes, _if_ you know, that being "well centered over the ski" is essential for controlled skiing offpiste, then you have much power. What I wanted to explain: If you start as beginner with alpine skiing, noone tells you that "being well centered", helps a lot. A lot of fine alpine piste skiers won't learn this ever. If you start as beginner with telemark, you will learn this skill before you start the first stem turn. This is to my opinion a real big(!) advantage of starting with telemark. Florian |
#14
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-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
In article , Martin Thornquist wrote: [ Jim Bolinger ] IMHO, the telemark turn is more difficult than with locked heels. With modern AT (randonee) gear, there is little or no difference in capabilities while in walk mode and a significant advantage in downhill mode. YMMV. IANAT. (Cue usual arguments.) This might be right for heavy tele, but definitely not for the light side. There's an almost continous spectrum of gear from XC racing to heavy tele. If you fall somewhere in the middle of this (i.e. touring skis, not primarily downhill, and leather boots) tele is definitely the way to go. _ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain. Particularly, if there is any chance of skating. AT/randonee might be the thing for skiing in the Alps and similar places where most terrain is on the steep side -- fixed heel does give more control, so it's probably right for very steep survival skiing. In mellower terrain however, when the goal is the touring and not the steep hillsides, tele is the way to go. _ If you take a good long look at the Randonee racing gear, I think for someone who's skills might not be the greatest AT gear makes a lot of sense if you want to make turns at some point. For rolling terrain I would stay away from Dynafit and look at something like the Silvretta Pure. Ease of changing modes is the key to making AT work for rolling terrain, the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but it's just not the same. _ And if you want to go into weight weenie mode, I think you'll be hard pressed to get a tele setup that skis as well as the Dynafit for anywhere near the same weight. While mountain boots suck for making turns, so do most lightweight NNN/BC and 3 pin boots. The "extra" weight in a Dynafit setup is the boots, not the bindings. TLT - 24 oz. NNN/BC - 16 oz. G3 T9 - 37 oz. Voile 3pin - 13 oz. _ For what Chris wants to do, I think lightweight AT gear is the way to go once he's gotten a turn down. He's got an ice axe and I know he wants to use it. ( think Shasta in May... ) _ Booker C. Bense -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: 2.6.2 iQCVAwUBP+Hkn2TWTAjn5N/lAQGvAgQAp9P89mspn1qzjuqwQ2DEzJoZ8Qg54YeC BC/a+WfbAe5b5XGR6utbS3+7ePmzDFReAXfwUjL9MVeQxEIyKRyS7 9+5hFDq5C8/ chIMn8H40PCpRGB/57SDJmWTZU1zDv4XNWwLtiU59x0XzesBXmSAiYrxRYZEXOxL 6x8srzY4HmA= =1poe -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- |
#15
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Florian Anwander wrote:
It seems you misunderstood me: Yes, _if_ you know, that being "well centered over the ski" is essential for controlled skiing offpiste, then you have much power. What I wanted to explain: If you start as beginner with alpine skiing, noone tells you that "being well centered", helps a lot. A lot of fine alpine piste skiers won't learn this ever. Ok! But, staying centered on alpine skis is another kind than a well centered stance on tele :-)) (the later, in comparison, way way backward compared to alpine). Anyway, you're right, there is a kind of "ideology" that tells to stay backward in alpine skiing, when you're skiing offpist. And IMHO, that's pretty much stupid. You have to stay pretty much like you have to stay in pist (but it requires a little bit of courage to continue to simply ski even with the tips of your skis under the snow). Essentially, that's it. Once you got this, there are no poblems anymore If you start as beginner with telemark, you will learn this skill before you start the first stem turn. This is to my opinion a real big(!) advantage of starting with telemark. I can imagine that, but, obviously, it's not in my experience (since i'm coming from a long and intensive alpine practice of all kinds. Greetings, Ulrich -- reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch |
#16
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lac.stanford.edu wrote:
_ And if you want to go into weight weenie mode, I think you'll be hard pressed to get a tele setup that skis as well as the Dynafit for anywhere near the same weight. While mountain boots suck for making turns, so do most lightweight NNN/BC and 3 pin boots. The "extra" weight in a Dynafit setup is the boots, not the bindings. TLT - 24 oz. NNN/BC - 16 oz. G3 T9 - 37 oz. Voile 3pin - 13 oz. _ For what Chris wants to do, I think lightweight AT gear is the way to go once he's gotten a turn down. He's got an ice axe and I know he wants to use it. ( think Shasta in May... ) Hi Booker, but the alpine randonee *race* equipment (for patroulleur races and similar - we call that people sky runner) probably is far far more away from decent alpine skiing than tele-touring equipment from decent tele skiing. The ultralight AT skis are ugly for all kind of movement on the snow that isn't uphill running/racing! Same for the boots. And if you're using Scarpa Denali or Garmont G-ride, which are good for skiing, definitely you're on the heavy (and not so comfortable) side. The great advantage IMHO (from too long use of very tightened alpine race boots i suffer chronical periostitis in both feet) of teleboots is, they 're way more comfortable, and to me, they allow to continue to ski. Small note to the Pure binding: Some friends of mine tested it and found it *VERY* fragile (according to them, it will still need one season to become a good AT binding). Greetings, Ulrich -- reply to: uhausmannATbluemailDOTch |
#17
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lac.stanford.edu wrote:
_ I'm not so convinced of this as I was. Having actually tried it, I think there is a lot to be said for AT in rolling terrain. Particularly, if there is any chance of skating. But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be using rigid boots now. Rolling terrain is a place for wax. I guess you could put a randonee binding on a ski designed for grip wax, but I think there's probably a reason why nobody does. If you're using skins in rolling terrain, even with heavy packs, it makes a huge reduction in speed (hitting some whiteout in a navigation tight spot last year, we all put our 40 mm mohair skins on to slow us down to a predictable trudge) the Silvretta bar and heel just plain works... The one place where AT clearly loses is kick'n'glide, you can do it, but it's just not the same. Quite: and I find kick and glide is the way to eat up miles. Perhaps we have a different idea of "rolling terrain"? Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#18
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Skate power is mainly through the heel. Having the heel free allows a
little extra range of motion in the push which adds no more than 5% to skating power. It's nice to have, but not critical. Ice speedskaters only started playing with free-heel skates ("klap-skates") less than ten years ago. Most inline speedskaters on pavement still think free-heel frames are not worth it, so they skate at amazing speeds with their heel _fixed_ to their wheel-frame. Peter Clinch wrote But it's a lot easier to put skate power through the ball of your foot than via a hinge in front of it. Otherwise the track skaters would be using rigid boots now. Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether skating on ice, pavement, or snow. I'd guess that the advantage of like an Salomon X-Adventure or NNN-BC (if using a stiffer bumper plug) over some AT binding is that they keep the heel of the foot closer to the ski, so the recovery for the next skate-push is easier to control. Ken |
#19
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Ken Roberts wrote:
ago. Most inline speedskaters on pavement still think free-heel frames are not worth it, so they skate at amazing speeds with their heel _fixed_ to their wheel-frame. Not a very handy comparison though, as the "ski" is scarcely longer than the foot. Focus on toe-push is a well-known pitfall for beginner skaters. The move that leads to advanced skating (for touring or racing, not tricks) is to learn to focus on pushing thru the heel, together with learning to push directly out toward the side (not toward the back). That's true whether skating on ice, pavement, or snow. I'll happily take your word for that, but the fact remains that the top skaters on skis are not using rigid bars underfoot as you'd have on an AT binding. There'd be nothing preventing you from building a retainer hook into one to keep the heel and ski close if there was any advantage to doing that. Pete. -- Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/ |
#20
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Peter Clinch wrote
the fact remains that the top skaters on skis are not using rigid bars underfoot as you'd have on an AT binding. There'd be nothing preventing you from building a retainer hook into one to keep the heel and ski close if there was any advantage to doing that. More information about that: -- in the Dynafit TLT binding system for Alpine Touring, there is no rigid bar under the foot. -- the Scarpa F1 boot for the Dynafit TLT system does not have a rigid boot sole. -- boots for serious ski-skate racing have soles that are pretty stiff, similar to a Scarpa F1 AT boot. -- the most popular binding for serious ski-skate racing (Salomon Pilot) _does_ indeed have a _hook_ whose purpose is to keep the heel and ski close. So there's no question about "any advantage". -- unlike most tele boot-binding combintions, the Salomon Pilot binding has no resistance which must first be overcome in order to press the heel of the boot against the ski. The _mushiness_ of the heel connection ("rocker launch") in most telemark boot-binding combinations is a very strange concept to ski-skate racers. That's where an AT binding has an obvious advantage for skating. Ken |
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