Terrified Nine Year Old and the Berm

There was a nine year old on the hill who was trying out
skis, and had ridden a rather formidable ground lift all
the way to the top, gotten locked up in the fall line, built
up some speed, then crashed horribly. He was mostly
unhurt after this experience. The episode had, however,
left him *very* reluctant to put the skis back on again.

After the episode, his parents managed to get him back
on the skis, but called for an instructor when the boy
wouldn't move.

All his older siblings ski or snowboard.

When I first saw him, sure enough he wouldn't move.
He was, as he himself put it, "extremely nervous". I
could even say terrified. He did not want to ski any
more.

Ah, so what. What's the problem? I just told him to
stay in his parallel, popped out of my skis and pushed
him around in the flats by the ski racks, then up the
bunny hill maybe five or ten feet at an angle over in
front of the berm. This all under protest from my
student, though luckily enough he did stay in a parallel
stance the whole time.

Then I held him off the slope while I got him turned
around and aimed right at the center of the berm,
asked him if he was ready, (to which he answered "no",
to which I answered, "sure you are") then I let him go,
on to his ten foot journey down the hill, up into the
berm and backward to the bottom of it.

"Kind of boring, isn't it?"

After that it was just a question of pushing him backward
up the hill again, stepping out of the way and letting him
go, while also increasing the distance a bit each time. I
mean, how hard is it to push a kid backward ten feet and
let him go?

In only minutes, the kid remarked, "Hey, this *is* fun!".

Then we moved him on to riding the lift up to the top
of the berm run, ran him through some straight run
progressions, and ended up with a skier after two or
three hours.

His first experience on skis had been to just point 'em.
So had his second, the only difference being the speed,
distance and the intervention of a terrain stop instead of
an ugly fall.

Without the berm, my personal belief is that we might
have been weeks getting this young fellow over the
trauma of his first moments on skis. This is because,
without the berm he would have always been faced with
the choice of either turning or falling intentionally. The
absolute last thing he ever wanted to do again was fall.
Faced with that choice, he might well have chosen not to
ski.

Without the berm, we had a big challenge. We had a big
problem that might have taken up a lot of time and lots of
resources to solve, if we were able to solve it at all.

With the berm, it wasn't any problem. With the berm, there
*aren't* any problems with students.

They can run parallel into the berm all year if they need to.
They themselves can see when they're ready to turn. They
can *try* turning, then return to the berm for more wedge
changeups or whatever, by then understanding how it all
works, how they need to progress and what skills they
need to develop further. They *can* develop those skills
further, at no risk, under no pressure, with no fear,
because they're heading into the berm, which will gently
and graciously stop them on each run into it.

If you use a berm, the skier learns all the tools they'll need
to turn *before* they make even one turn, unless they've
made one accidentally. They learn these tools without
the risk of a fall.

There is no fear, no risk. There is *never* a situation in
which the student either has to turn, fall, or run into
something.

At every resort or area that doesn't have a berm, the latter
situation exists. Turn, fall or die, basically. This is a *terrible*
choice to present the student with. Especially since there's no
need at all for it.

You can use any progression you want into the berm.

Schrittbogen, like I use, or gliding wedge, braking wedge,
PSIA Wedge, direct to parallel, absolutely anything you
can think of. They either turn, or go straight into the berm.
No biggie.

How is it that *no* resort or area in this country (except
the ones I know of) are using a berm in this way for their
new students? It must be that they just don't care about
their newbie customers, or about saving time, and as
always follows, money. Teaching beginners of *all* ages
is an absolute snap if you use a berm.

Please. It's nothing but a pile of snow. It's the *best*
possible thing you can do for your ski school. Build it,
use it.

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:24:41 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

How is it that *no* resort or area in this country (except
the ones I know of) are using a berm in this way for their
new students?

That's 'cause most of them have flats at the base of the beginner's
area that they use day-in and day-out to accomplish the same thing -
ie, let the student come safely to rest without any intervention from
the instructor.

So what do you feel is the big advantage of a berm over a flat (or
slightly uphill) run-out?

Alpine Instructor writes:

On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:24:41 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

How is it that *no* resort or area in this country (except
the ones I know of) are using a berm in this way for their
new students?

That's 'cause most of them have flats at the base of the beginner's
area that they use day-in and day-out to accomplish the same thing -
ie, let the student come safely to rest without any intervention from
the instructor.

And there are plenty that have "safety berms" where needed. We have
a big one -- we just don't use it in teaching. The kids are, as foot
describes, perfectly happy to coast passively into the berm. But
the real world doesn't have berms to stop you, and when the kids
leave your tender care after an hour or two, their parents are going
to take them somewhere -- another part of the mountain, or another
mountain altogether -- where the edges aren't padded by nice safe
berms.

I think the teaching progression that foot describes has its place,
but it's not a cure-all. Yeah, it's fun to simply point 'em down
the hill and cruise into the berm -- so much so that kids will
resist doing anything else. They're having fun, right? And that
turning and stopping stuff is work, right? So what's the big deal?
The big deal is that a learning slope with a berm is to a real ski
hill as a padded, safety-netted Chuck E. Cheese playground is to a
Marine obstacle course. To the kid, this coasting into the berm
thing is skiing...but the parents have very different expectations
and intentions, and that's what you need to prepare for.

--
:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::: ::::::::::::::::::::::::
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield,
Other days you're the bug.

"Alpine Instructor" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:24:41 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

How is it that *no* resort or area in this country (except
the ones I know of) are using a berm in this way for their
new students?

That's 'cause most of them have flats at the base of the beginner's
area that they use day-in and day-out to accomplish the same thing -
ie, let the student come safely to rest without any intervention from
the instructor.

So what do you feel is the big advantage of a berm over a flat (or
slightly uphill) run-out?


The berm makes it easy, fun, practical, exciting, the berm
makes it real.

I'm not talking slightly uphill, I'm talking seriously uphill,
be it gradual, or abrupt, depending on the space you have,
and the configuration of the hill. Something in the nature
of a near quarter pipe if you don't have the space for a
more gradual berm.

As far as abrupt, then is added another dimension for the
beginner. They go *backward* after they run out of gas.
It seems to be much more beneficial than problematic, as
long as you use progressions.

Of every resort/area I've seen (all of them) in Idaho,
Montana, Washington and Oregon, the only ones I know
of that even have what you describe (beginner flat where
you get off a *lift* and can run out in a flat) are Willamette,
Anthony Lakes and perhaps Bogus Basin, and these seem
to be more by accident than design. It simply has to do
with where the beginner lifts ended up, that is, in a hole.
In the case of Bogus, I seem to recall that the student
might still have to fall to avoid people, ski racks and such,
though I don't remember for sure. I need to go to Bogus
again, it's a great place.

Now, most do pick out some flat area with a lame little
slope that they have the student *walk up* then "schuss"
down, then try edging and turning on. This gets both
tiring and boring very quickly.

But more importantly, this is nothing near enough to
prepare the student for the beginner lift. Once they leave
this "flat" for the green terrain, or even beginner lift terrain,
The students struggle, they fall, they get frustrated, and
sometimes they get hurt. Many times, still, perhaps they
just quit forever after only one day of trying.

Especially if the instructor has only spent an hour with
the student climbing and skiing around this "flat", then
kissed the student off and gone back into the shack.

These places I've seen are kidding themselves with their
"flat". It doesn't prepare the student for hardly anything.

With a berm, you can progressively send the student into
it at faster and faster speeds, speeds that hopefully well
exceed those that the student will first be turning at. You
can have the student do any sort of drill at challenging
speeds. Steer, edge, work on body position, balance,
whatever.

Not only is it practically useful, it's actually exciting,
even a bit scary for the student, yet the student is entirely
safe the whole time. If the student doesn't make the turn,
or the move, they just go straight into the berm.

The flat doesn't exist that will allow the same things a
berm does. It would be impractical. Once the student lost
momentum, they'd have to walk or pole 25 or fifty yards
back to the bottom of the beginner lift.

It saves space, and it saves instructors. With a berm, one
instructor can do the job of two or three, as I described in
an earlier post. You just keep sending the people into the
berm, and give them all feedback. You don't have to hold
each one's hand. You don't have to be concerned with
their safety. As some get ready enough to try turning, you
take those up, while the rest are still running the berm.
Then you stop by the berm and give a bit more feedback,
take more up the hill, etc.

The real point is, the student is *fully* ready to make
turns, at speed, on beginner or green terrain, before they've
ever made a turn. They have all the tools, they've been
challenged, a bit scared, relieved, they've gotten a feeling
of mastery, and they've never made a turn. They've faced
speeds and slopes *more* extreme than the ones they'll be
first learning to turn on. They've been safe the whole time,
and the process has been effortless compared to the fall or
die scenario. Most of all the process is effortless for the
instructor. One instructor could take a class of thirty or
forty beginners. It just doesn't matter if you have the
berm.

Thank you very much for the reply, Alpine Instructor, I
hope there's more conversation to come.


(remove the {delete} to email me)

"foot2foot" wrote in news:103prdq1b7u4u68
@corp.supernews.com:


"Alpine Instructor" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 24 Feb 2004 14:24:41 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

How is it that *no* resort or area in this country (except
the ones I know of) are using a berm in this way for their
new students?

That's 'cause most of them have flats at the base of the beginner's
area that they use day-in and day-out to accomplish the same thing -
ie, let the student come safely to rest without any intervention from
the instructor.

I learned to ski at Camelback in PA. They did not have a berm. I wish
they had, not only at the learning hill but also at the end of the
beginners trail they sent us to later - Subowl. At the time they had no
berm and what seemed like a very short runout leading directly into a
metal fence! I remember having to ditch once or twice to avoid hitting
it.
--
Chuck
Remove "_nospam" to reply by email

On Wed, 25 Feb 2004 10:47:12 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

"Alpine Instructor" wrote in message
.. .

So what do you feel is the big advantage of a berm over a flat (or
slightly uphill) run-out?


The berm makes it easy, fun, practical, exciting, the berm
makes it real.

I'm not talking slightly uphill, I'm talking seriously uphill,
be it gradual, or abrupt, depending on the space you have,
and the configuration of the hill. Something in the nature
of a near quarter pipe if you don't have the space for a
more gradual berm.

As far as abrupt, then is added another dimension for the
beginner. They go *backward* after they run out of gas.
It seems to be much more beneficial than problematic, as
long as you use progressions.

I understand what you are suggesting about using progressions, but if
my beginners could ski backwards without falling over, they wouldn't
be beginners in my book. ;-)

Of every resort/area I've seen (all of them) in Idaho,
Montana, Washington and Oregon, the only ones I know
of that even have what you describe (beginner flat where
you get off a *lift* and can run out in a flat)

Actually, I wasn't talking about that, I had in mind what you describe
in your next paragraph. However, FWIW, my home area also has a large
flat area at the top of the beginner's chairs. I hope you don't mind,
but because of the kooks on this forum, I'm not going to get specific
about which area I teach at, just lets say its east of Chicago.

Now, most do pick out some flat area with a lame little
slope that they have the student *walk up* then "schuss"
down, then try edging and turning on. This gets both
tiring and boring very quickly.

We start them doing this, and ASAP move them over to a nearby slow
T-bar that serves a *very* mellow wide learning area. I take 'em over
to the T-bar if they can do a hint of an uphill turn from a traverse.
Once there, I typically do garlands and then fan progressions that
eventually cross the fall line. If they can't cross the fall line
yet, I have them do a bullfighter turn at the end of each traverse.

But more importantly, this is nothing near enough to
prepare the student for the beginner lift. Once they leave
this "flat" for the green terrain, or even beginner lift terrain,
The students struggle, they fall, they get frustrated, and
sometimes they get hurt. Many times, still, perhaps they
just quit forever after only one day of trying.

It sounds like we have quite different terrain.

Especially if the instructor has only spent an hour with
the student climbing and skiing around this "flat", then
kissed the student off and gone back into the shack.

These places I've seen are kidding themselves with their
"flat". It doesn't prepare the student for hardly anything.

Actually, with over half of my never-ever students, I can get them to
turn out of the fall line to a stop in an hour. Most of these are
gliding wedgers, but a few are wide wedgers, and I'll use DTP on a few
as well.

With a berm, you can progressively send the student into
it at faster and faster speeds, speeds that hopefully well
exceed those that the student will first be turning at. You
can have the student do any sort of drill at challenging
speeds. Steer, edge, work on body position, balance,
whatever.

Not only is it practically useful, it's actually exciting,
even a bit scary for the student, yet the student is entirely
safe the whole time. If the student doesn't make the turn,
or the move, they just go straight into the berm.

You're right that there theoretically is an advantage to
having students first comfortable with a bit of speed.

Unfortunately, in practice things are different. Most little kids
don't have a problem with speed, so this doesn't help them. The rest
of the kids and just about all adults realize after about 1 minute on
skis that they need to know how to stop when and where they want.
Somehow, I just can't see the 65 y.o. grandma from Elkhart being
reassured by the presence of a quarter pipe rising up in front of her
as she speeds towards it. I'm sure she would land on her keester.


The flat doesn't exist that will allow the same things a
berm does. It would be impractical. Once the student lost
momentum, they'd have to walk or pole 25 or fifty yards
back to the bottom of the beginner lift.

That's why we have the little surface lift.

It saves space, and it saves instructors. With a berm, one
instructor can do the job of two or three, as I described in
an earlier post. You just keep sending the people into the
berm, and give them all feedback. You don't have to hold
each one's hand. You don't have to be concerned with
their safety. As some get ready enough to try turning, you
take those up, while the rest are still running the berm.
Then you stop by the berm and give a bit more feedback,
take more up the hill, etc.

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Sort of like an
automatic student return system, eh? I like that.

There is a spot in our beginner's area where there is a bit of an
uphill - sort of a quasi-berm. Maybe I'll send a few Guinea Pigs
towards it this weekend and see how it works out. At least when they
fall, the bodies will be returned to me automatically.

Thank you very much for the reply, Alpine Instructor, I
hope there's more conversation to come.

Thank you as well - gotta run.

Cheers

"Alpine Instructor" wrote in message
...

I understand what you are suggesting about using progressions, but if
my beginners could ski backwards without falling over, they wouldn't
be beginners in my book. ;-)

You've never run any of them at this type of berm. I've
not seen *one* that can't take a ten foot run into the berm
in parallel, and hold on to that same parallel on the way
out. You do have to keep the surface groomed with skis
or whatever to make sure the tails don't dig in.

Also, they are prepared in two ways.

One, show the student home position, and explain that
skiing will cause them to be thrown backward, which
they must resist by holding position using their abs to
keep them forward, and by keeping their hands forward.

Then, with gloved hands, grab the/each student's tips,
(while they stand in parallel) and give a calculated jerk
forward to simulate the movement of skiing. You *must*
base this jerk on an assessment of the student's physical
abilities. Go easy. Then push back on the tips as well. Tell
them to resist the forward force by using abs and arms,
and the backward force with their back muscles.

Repeat, perhaps increasing intensity until the student can
stay reasonably well in home position despite the jerk
and push. It does not take long.

Two, have the student hold their poles horizontally,
about shoulder high in front of them. Push them
backward using the poles, asking them to hold home
position by resisting your push with their ab muscles and
arms. Any approximation of success is good at this point,
as long as they resist you sufficiently to allow you to push
them backward. Perhaps they'll hold their body straight
as a tree at 45 degrees to resist you, that's OK. Then you
push them back, and pull them forward by the poles,
encouraging them to hold home position. Tow them all
over the mountain if you wish. Refine their position a bit
as you go.

As such, twice they've gone backward, and have fully
experienced what they need to do to stay standing on
the skis, going backward or forward. And they haven't
actually *skied* one foot of distance yet.

When beginners start going backward, they fall mostly
out of panic. Into the berm, they know just what to
expect, and know that all in the world they have to do is
just *stand* on the skis in parallel. They know they'll
stop, they know they'll be safe.

\/ (having students walk up a slope and ski to a flat) \/

We start them doing this, and ASAP move them over to a nearby slow
T-bar that serves a *very* mellow wide learning area. I take 'em over
to the T-bar if they can do a hint of an uphill turn from a traverse.
Once there, I typically do garlands and then fan progressions that
eventually cross the fall line. If they can't cross the fall line
yet, I have them do a bullfighter turn at the end of each traverse.

Ah, the Vail Ski School/PSIA adopted approach? It's
very useful, but like anything else, it really depends on
the skill of the instructor. The berm is easier for everyone.
You can make it so simple that a monkey could teach
on the berm.

Also,

Is it possible that they would have no choice but to fall
if they got locked in parallel, and headed straight across,
or down the hill? Fall or hit something?

If not, then I suppose you have a defacto berm.

If so, then they are depending on a skill they don't
have yet, one that the berm can provide before
they ever turn.

I don't teach the bullfighter turn at all, because it's a
good way to break your hand, and a good way to get
a student in trouble if they try it on a steeper slope.

My opinion, you should never hold your poles like
that.

But then, with the berm, I don't need to.

It sounds like we have quite different terrain.

It sounds to me like you have excellent terrain, unlike
most PNW areas, but then again, is it possible the
student is faced with the choice to fall or collide?

This choice is altogether eliminated with a berm.

Actually, with over half of my never-ever students, I can get them to
turn out of the fall line to a stop in an hour. Most of these are
gliding wedgers, but a few are wide wedgers, and I'll use DTP on a few
as well.

That's very good. Have you experienced the General
Manager type pressure (well placed really) to get
the students skiing the blues? Or more directly put,
how soon can you get your students up skiing the
"whole mountain" as they like to put it? The berm
can get them ready for this, before they ever get there.

You're right that there theoretically is an advantage to
having students first comfortable with a bit of speed.

Unfortunately, in practice things are different.

This method *is* in practice : ).

Most little kids
don't have a problem with speed, so this doesn't help them.

You don't allow them to get speed until they have edging.
The little kid never evers love the berm.

The rest
of the kids and just about all adults realize after about 1 minute on
skis that they need to know how to stop when and where they want.

So they learn to on the berm, without any fear, pressure or risk.

Somehow, I just can't see the 65 y.o. grandma from Elkhart being
reassured by the presence of a quarter pipe rising up in front of her
as she speeds towards it. I'm sure she would land on her keester.

Currently sold rental learner skis with the semi twin tips
solve the backward problem anyway, (all learner skis
should be twin tip because of this problem) but,

Progressions, my friend.

You don't take grandma to the top of the lift and let her
go, even if the berm would stop her. You just start her out
with a five foot trip into the berm, then maybe ten, then
you work into edging, foot to foot balance, whatever you
want. Without pressure, fear, or risk.

Grandma could take all year to learn to turn if she wants.

This brings up another point, in my mind, someone like
grandma can not afford to fall *at all*. The berm can
make that possible.

Any system, any progression.

Before long grandma will be *itching* to speed into it.

The berm leaves you wanting more. That's part of the
secret.

That's why we have the little surface lift.

Yes, unlike most areas, you may well have a defacto
berm, but nonetheless if your students, *before* they
have the tools to turn, are possibly faced with the choice
of falling or colliding, you do not. The berm saves them
the anquish of this choice.

For those areas that are really *hurting* for beginner
terrain, the berm could/should/would be a Godsend.
But they don't have it.

It's best to have a tow so the student can unload at
progressively higher distances, but, even of you only
had magic carpets, you could use more than one berm.

Hit the first, then hit the second, then shoot straight for
the second, etc.

(below quoting my earlier comments and replying)

It saves space, and it saves instructors. With a berm, one
instructor can do the job of two or three, as I described in
an earlier post. You just keep sending the people into the
berm, and give them all feedback. You don't have to hold
each one's hand. You don't have to be concerned with
their safety. As some get ready enough to try turning, you
take those up, while the rest are still running the berm.
Then you stop by the berm and give a bit more feedback,
take more up the hill, etc.

That's an interesting point I hadn't thought of. Sort of like an
automatic student return system, eh? I like that.

There is a spot in our beginner's area where there is a bit of an
uphill - sort of a quasi-berm. Maybe I'll send a few Guinea Pigs
towards it this weekend and see how it works out. At least when they
fall, the bodies will be returned to me automatically.

The first trip should be barely enough momentum to take
them down the hill and into the berm.

Then progress from there.

Prepare them first with the quasi tip jerk and pull and the
quasi pole pull/push as above described. They won't fall
unless their tails dig in, and you can prevent that. Besides if
you're worried, the berm also provides the perfect means to
teach the backward wedge so they can be in control if they
do get backward. Falling backward shouldn't even be an
issue until after a few trips into the berm.


See ya next week or two or something maybe.....


Thank you as well - gotta run.

Cheers

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:44:49 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

Major snippage
The first trip should be barely enough momentum to take
them down the hill and into the berm.

Then progress from there.

Prepare them first with the quasi tip jerk and pull and the
quasi pole pull/push as above described. They won't fall
unless their tails dig in, and you can prevent that. Besides if
you're worried, the berm also provides the perfect means to
teach the backward wedge so they can be in control if they
do get backward. Falling backward shouldn't even be an
issue until after a few trips into the berm.

See ya next week or two or something maybe.....

I just walked in and its pretty late, so this is going to be short.

You do make some very good points about the berm. Thanks for the
suggestions - If I get the some level 1's or 2's, have some time to
think about this more before I unleash it on unsuspecting guests, and
if the specific area I am thinking of is not already in use by another
instructor, I think I will try your approach on some students soon.
I'll report back after I've tried it at least a couple of times and
honed my approach to teaching it.

On the other points you mentioned:

1) Yup, we do have some nice never-ever terrain here, It would be
nice if it were larger, but its not bad.

2) Yup #2, the garland - fan - bullfighter approach is pretty much a
modified Vail thing.

3) I've actually never had any general pressure whatsoever to "git 'em
up the blues" - it's almost the opposite in our school. The only
exception was after one student mildly complained to our SSD that she
thought I was keeping her on the greens unnecessarily. At the
suggestion of our SSD (grin), I was only to happy to oblige her and
then let her lead the way back to the greens. ;-)

I'm beat.

Later, bud ...

PS - Our SSD is fairly laid back and cuts us plenty of slack, but
trying the berm approach on never-evers is clearly going to "get
noticed."

On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:44:49 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

The first trip should be barely enough momentum to take
them down the hill and into the berm.

A first ever on USENET. A discussion of Bermese skiing.

OK, nevermind. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Yort

You should stop in more often.

"Yort" wrote in message
news
On Thu, 26 Feb 2004 13:44:49 -0800, "foot2foot"
wrote:

The first trip should be barely enough momentum to take
them down the hill and into the berm.

A first ever on USENET. A discussion of Bermese skiing.

OK, nevermind. Back to your regularly scheduled programming.

Yort