World Cup Peloton - Drug Reduced - Approaching Drug Free ?

In Janne's recent video's, it is striking to me that

A) like Jeff Potter said, these guys are flat-out-flying !! 30k in 66
minutes is an unbelievable 2:12 / km pace. If you prefer, a 3:32 /
mile pace.

That is astounding.

B) the pack is so tight for the entire 30k. This seems to be a new
thing to the WC. New to the scene, I haven't seen too many races, but
those I have look sort of like bike races with some guys off the
front, and a couple other packs strung out, then the bunch. I like to
think we could attribute this to better doping controls.

So, in my own wonderland, all these guys are now skiing on their
training instead of on their "prescriptions" and there isn't that much
time separating the top skiers. And the US Ski Team is right there
with them. Is this a bright new day or what ?!

Back to the pace, it sure looks like these guys are not skiing
tactically. For example, they are not racing at a slow pace waiting to
outkick each other at the end. They are just trying to burn a fast
pace to see who can hang. If you are skiing a 2:12 / k pace, how much
can you speed up in order to drop someone ? If my pace calculator is
correct, you can't ! The recent 100 m WR attempt @ SoHo in roughly 13
seconds, computes to a 2:10 / k pace. So these guys are traveling for
an hour literally at a sprint pace ?!?!?! Ouch baby.

Dell Todd wrote:

A) like Jeff Potter said, these guys are flat-out-flying !! 30k in 66
minutes is an unbelievable 2:12 / km pace. If you prefer, a 3:32 /
mile pace.

Track in Dobbiaco is not really one of hardest tracks arround. It's
pretty easy and quite fast one, so on other tracks it is different.
But 30km in 66min is nothing so unusal.


B) the pack is so tight for the entire 30k. This seems to be a new
thing to the WC. New to the scene, I haven't seen too many races, but
those I have look sort of like bike races with some guys off the
front, and a couple other packs strung out, then the bunch. I like to
think we could attribute this to better doping controls.

I quit my doping discussion for this season so I won't comment anything
about this, but about something else. Mass starts are much easier for
some people and much harder for others. Personally I had almost all
my best races in relays (I was usually skiing 1st leg), and I don't
know why but it was much easier to ski really fast and to spend every
bit of energy when there was someone who you had to keep up with. It
happend few times to me I came to finish with people who I would never
beat in normal races. So things will change when it will be normal
start and not mass start. But there is around 20 people who are there
all the time no matter what kind start it is. There's not 20 people
who can win but top 20 is pretty much same all the time.

Back to the pace, it sure looks like these guys are not skiing
tactically. For example, they are not racing at a slow pace waiting to
outkick each other at the end. They are just trying to burn a fast
pace to see who can hang.

Skiing is different then cycling. First even longest races are done
in 2 hours when cycling lasts forever Second... once when you
are in group there's much more chances something goes wrong so first
thing is to try to break that group make it smaller on first uphill
already. Afterall cycling doesn't look like slow group sunday trip
on last 50km either. And on end... if it hurts me then it hurts you
too so it's same for everyone, and with that you can get rid lot of
people who would be skiing on your poles on end making you problems.

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Is the 2'10" pace for 100meters from a standing start? A flying start
should yield over 30km/hr, i.e. under 2' pace, on a flat 100m. for sure.

Best, Peter

(Dell Todd) wrote in message . com...

B) the pack is so tight for the entire 30k. This seems to be a new
thing to the WC. New to the scene, I haven't seen too many races, but
those I have look sort of like bike races with some guys off the
front, and a couple other packs strung out, then the bunch. I like to
think we could attribute this to better doping controls.

I´d attribute it to:

1) the races being much shorter than the bike races where
there is more time for things to develop, breaks to occur
etc. In Vasaloppet which is both long and has a number of
"sprint stages" you´ll always see more action of this kind.

2) Cycling has had much more timeto develop team tactics,
specialists etc. Thankfully we don´t (yet?) have any
domestiques to either help a team-mate break away or to
try and slow the peloton down:-)


BTW my pet peeve with mas starts is that the skiers whose
bib number is greater than 30 do not get a fair deal. Okay,
they have their opportunities to climb up in the ranking...



Anders

Anders,

Why do you say that bib #so over 30 don't get a fair deal? Is there a
time gap at the start between the first 30 and other racers?

And is the deal they get during mass start races less fair than during
interval start races?

Erik Brooks

----- Original Message -----
From: "Anders Lustig"
To: "Multiple recipients of list NORDIC-SKI"

Sent: Wednesday, December 10, 2003 1:43 AM
Subject: World Cup Peloton - Drug Reduced - Approaching Drug Free
?


(Dell Todd) wrote in message
. com...

B) the pack is so tight for the entire 30k. This seems to be a new
thing to the WC. New to the scene, I haven't seen too many races,
but
those I have look sort of like bike races with some guys off the
front, and a couple other packs strung out, then the bunch. I like
to
think we could attribute this to better doping controls.

Id attribute it to:

1) the races being much shorter than the bike races where
there is more time for things to develop, breaks to occur
etc. In Vasaloppet which is both long and has a number of
"sprint stages" youll always see more action of this kind.

2) Cycling has had much more timeto develop team tactics,
specialists etc. Thankfully we dont (yet?) have any
domestiques to either help a team-mate break away or to
try and slow the peloton down:-)


BTW my pet peeve with mas starts is that the skiers whose
bib number is greater than 30 do not get a fair deal. Okay,
they have their opportunities to climb up in the ranking...



Anders

Erik Brooks wrote:

Anders,

Why do you say that bib #so over 30 don't get a fair deal? Is there a
time gap at the start between the first 30 and other racers?

And is the deal they get during mass start races less fair than during
interval start races?


No there's no time gap, but they start from 3rd or 4th row and
usually you have corner after first few 100m and track gets more
narrow after that. If you are not front at that time you can
pretty much forget to be front in that race. And since those
people in first or second row are not some sunday skiers there's
not really much chances you could just jump over them You can
still do pretty good from 3rd or 4th row, but I guess noone is
really expecting someone who is usually on place 80 to win race
so that's reason why noone is complaining about this.
In individual start everyone is on it's own so if conditions are
ok everyone have same conditions.

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(Erik Brooks) wrote in message news:001101c3bf31$6f75a6f0$6401a8c0@Merlin...

Why do you say that bib #so over 30 don't get a fair deal? Is there a
time gap at the start between the first 30 and other racers?

In practise, yes! The skiers in the "head" will lose much
less time due to congestion, jams (and sometimes stoppages)
from the start onwards than the "tail" (which in this
animal is very long...).

To advance ten positions from 40th to 30th, for example,
will usually entail a greater energy expenditure than from
20th to 10th, and there is a considerably greater risk of
getting one´s poles broken - sometimes multiple times, like
the current "great Finnish hope" Teemu Kattilakoski:-) -
for the low-ranking skiers.

(And all of the above will be the worse, the more unsuitable
and narrower the course is. Alas, in recent massstart races
it has been a case of either "more" or "even more"...)



And is the deal they get during mass start races less fair than during
interval start races?

IMHO considerably less fair.

In interval races they sometimes have to tackle in slower
conditions (or with similar conditions with less up-to-date
information which results in a poorer ski choice/wax job),
and they have the disadvantage of not being to "ride" either
on the split times or in tow of the high-ranking skiers.

But these disadvantages are often only theoretical and do
not by definition prevent a skier from performing as
optimally as the high-ranking skiers - whereas in mass-
start races the built-in disadvantages invariably result
in a very great number of the low-ranking skiers doing
sub-optimally compared to the high-ranking skiers.

(And since only the placements up from 30 really count, it
doesn´t greatly help if a large number of those skiers
suffer roughly the same amount:-))


Which is not to say that I´d ban mass-starts, they´re
quite possibly good for the sport (and, less possibly,
provide a suitable arena for different kind of skiers).

I´d perhaps have fewer of them - and cancel them when
it´s obvious that the course will make the race a bit
of a farce for more than half of the skiers:-)



Anders

have fewer

"Erik Brooks" wrote in message
news:001101c3bf31$6f75a6f0$6401a8c0@Merlin...
Anders,

Why do you say that bib #so over 30 don't get a fair deal? Is there a
time gap at the start between the first 30 and other racers?

And is the deal they get during mass start races less fair than during
interval start races?

Erik Brooks


I find mass starts similar to Formula One car racing. If you are the best
(i.e. in F1, if you win the qualifications), you deserve the pole. You want
to be in front, not behind, because you know that you will lose time and
spend energy trying to pass slower competitors. However, for slower
competitors in x-c, you cannot take advantage of pitstops!

If you want to attract spectators, I believe mass start races are much
better, since it is much more exciting (and easier) to follow.


JMC

P.S. Next time you have a "fun" or "practice" race, try reverse mass starts:
slowest on the front line and fastest on the last line...

This possibly relates to seeding in general. In particular to alpine skiing.
Low seeds have to ski a terrible course badly rutted. Low tennis seeds have to
beat Agassi or whoever to advance. Fat chance! BUT! --The 'buts' happen
regularly. You gotta want it! Move up move up.

I suppose everyone says 'I can win I can win me first me first' but in local
races and even regional ones near here I find that people are happy to seed
based on likely outcomes. They don't really want to pass or to be passed so
they self-seed or go along with previous-results seedings.

I'm sure WC events are insanely more tough to do anything major in, but sheesh
I always found it easy to move up even in crowded cit races. Sure it takes more
energy, but you're moving up, then self-seeding higher in the next race. Seems
to work out, in any event.

Have any actually likely CHAMPS had their careers ruined by continuous bad
seeding?

Seeding seems to request development trajectory well enough by and large.

I *really* didn't like the darn Birkie first-timers seed rule change. I got the
privilege in my first Birkie of starting with the 4-hr skiers after skiing a
2:15 the previous weekend. NOT pretty.

--

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In article , JMC wrote:
I find mass starts similar to Formula One car racing. If you are the best
(i.e. in F1, if you win the qualifications), you deserve the pole.

The problem is that results from long-gone races haunt you - if you had
a F1-like qualifier before a mass start some guys with top form on the
day (but less impressive track records) would stand a better chance.

If you want to attract spectators, I believe mass start races are much
better, since it is much more exciting (and easier) to follow.

I find it exactly the opposite (not valid for all, but something like
95+% of WC and championship mass starts have been very, VERY boring),
with interval start you a) got a longer life-time for a given split (in
mass start, it's all over in 30 secs), b) the tension that builds up
when wait for a given rider ("will he/she be here on time?" and c) more
interesting race dynamics as a given racer might pick up speed on the
second half or so on (in a mass start the only thing that happens is
that some people are dropped and finished, while the pack is going at
cruise speed for 80-90% of the race, and then set up the sprint.

However, different strokes for different folks - I enjoy keeping track
of split times with my own timer, while I understand that others don't.

/Tomas

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