lower back pain from skating

people with herniated discs often have less pain when moving. this is
probably because sensory input from the nerve fibers that detect
movement block the pain fibers. moving also can loosen up tight muscles
from chronic nerve root irritation.

The most effective techniques for going fast in XC ski racing do make big
use of the back muscles: like aggressive forward lean, quick recovery of the
shoulders back high for the next "forward fall" onto the poles, getting low
for aerodynamics at higher speed.

I did long skating workouts on the roads over the summer and I had a stiff
and sore back lots of times. Especially when I would have to skate into a
headwind, there was tremendous incentive to bend down low and force my back
muscles to work. Sometimes I actually had to rest two or three days before
I could go out again.

I do several different specific back-muscle exercises all year long, once a
week in the living room in front of a TV set, and once a week in the gym.

Ken

Thanks a lot everybody for the advice. My wife started doing regular
morning stretches (despite my expressed disbeliefs... perhaps
resentment was a factor here - whatever works) and got muscle-relaxing
pills prescribed. We'll work on the "C" thing when skating at FWP, NY
this weekend; will use the notorious "Neanderthal man" analogy, I guess.

Thanks a lot everybody for the advice. My wife started doing regular
morning stretches (despite my expressed disbeliefs... perhaps
resentment was a factor here - whatever works) and got muscle-relaxing
pills prescribed. We'll work on the "C" thing when skating at FWP, NY
this weekend; will use the notorious "Neanderthal man" analogy, I guess.

There's been a series in Silent Sports recently by a coach/PT in
Milwaukee who argues for body positioning based center-of-gravity skiing
and counterposes it to the 'C' and Neanderthal positions. I tried it
this past weekend on a trail system with many NW Wisconsin style steep
climbs and was stunned at how easy climbing hills became on both skates
and striders.

Basically, the focal point (COG) is midway between the heads of the
femurs on the horizontal plane, and halfway between navel and public
bone for the vertical. He says to think of it as being a fist size area
that one moves, balances and stays relaxed from (that's the key
statement). This focal point should be directly over the forefoot,
specifically just behind the balls of the feet in skating (I noticed
that forces the landing skate to be close and the ankle to flex). He
argues that the degree of flexion of ankles, knees and hips depends not
only on terrain but primarily on conditioning. He hasn't written about
striding, but I found that skiing from this focal point and landing on
the balls of my feet took me up every steep grade in the tracks, almost
as if I were floating most of the time (of course, I had a long dose of
powergrip on). For the first time, the balls of my feet were tender.

There are some people who seem to float up hills on skates. Inate
balance is part of it -- we're not all equal there -- but I wonder if
they just have learned or have this sense of using their COG that makes
it look so relaxed.

Of course, there are other things that can affect how one's back feels,
such as poling technique. But even that is aided by moving from the
right position.

Gene

wrote:

Thanks a lot everybody for the advice. My wife started doing regular
morning stretches (despite my expressed disbeliefs... perhaps
resentment was a factor here - whatever works) and got muscle-relaxing
pills prescribed. We'll work on the "C" thing when skating at FWP, NY
this weekend; will use the notorious "Neanderthal man" analogy, I guess.

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When I think of the "C" position, it entails that fist-sized center of gravity that you mention-- to me it feels like you have to work from the COG in order to achieve the "opening and closing" of the C that serves to initiate poling (using your abs/core to pole). I like the mental image of the size and location of the "fist", though, because it's another way to communicate to people the feeling of having your core engaged in the skiing motion. And having your core engaged keeps you from letting your hips get behind (hyperextending your back), which for some people, results in that low back pain. I used to get some pain in that area while classic skiing, but focusing on keeping my hips (COG) high and active has prevented that.

I've often noticed that floating feeling when I focus on that core area while downhill skiing-- I'll see how it feels going uphill, too.

thanks for the (mental) picture!
Chris

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:
There's been a series in Silent Sports recently by a coach/PT in
Milwaukee who argues for body positioning based center-of-gravity skiing
and counterposes it to the 'C' and Neanderthal positions. I tried it
this past weekend on a trail system with many NW Wisconsin style steep
climbs and was stunned at how easy climbing hills became on both skates
and striders.

Basically, the focal point (COG) is midway between the heads of the
femurs on the horizontal plane, and halfway between navel and public
bone for the vertical. He says to think of it as being a fist size area
that one moves, balances and stays relaxed from (that's the key
statement). This focal point should be directly over the forefoot,
specifically just behind the balls of the feet in skating (I noticed
that forces the landing skate to be close and the ankle to flex). He
argues that the degree of flexion of ankles, knees and hips depends not
only on terrain but primarily on conditioning. He hasn't written about
striding, but I found that skiing from this focal point and landing on
the balls of my feet took me up every steep grade in the tracks, almost
as if I were floating most of the time (of course, I had a long dose of
powergrip on). For the first time, the balls of my feet were tender.

There are some people who seem to float up hills on skates. Inate
balance is part of it -- we're not all equal there -- but I wonder if
they just have learned or have this sense of using their COG that makes
it look so relaxed.

Of course, there are other things that can affect how one's back feels,
such as poling technique. But even that is aided by moving from the
right position.

Gene

wrote:

Thanks a lot everybody for the advice. My wife started doing regular
morning stretches (despite my expressed disbeliefs... perhaps
resentment was a factor here - whatever works) and got muscle-relaxing
pills prescribed. We'll work on the "C" thing when skating at FWP, NY
this weekend; will use the notorious "Neanderthal man" analogy, I guess.





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DIVWhen I think of the "C" position, it entails that fist-sized center of gravity that you mention-- to me it feels like you have to work from the COG in order to achieve the "opening and closing" of the C that serves to initiate poling (using your abs/core to pole).  I like the mental image of the size and location of the "fist", though, because it's another way to communicate to people the feeling of having your core engaged in the skiing motion.  And having your core engaged keeps you from letting your hips get behind (hyperextending your back), which for some people, results in that low back pain.  I used to get some pain in that area while classic skiing, but focusing on keeping my hips (COG) high and active has prevented that./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVI've often noticed that floating feeling when I focus on that core area while downhill skiing-- I'll see how it feels going uphill, too./DIV
DIV /DIV
DIVthanks for the (mental) picture!/DIV
DIVChrisBRBRBIGene Goldenfeld >/I/B wrote:/DIV
BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid"There's been a series in Silent Sports recently by a coach/PT inBRMilwaukee who argues for body positioning based center-of-gravity skiingBRand counterposes it to the 'C' and Neanderthal positions. I tried itBRthis past weekend on a trail system with many NW Wisconsin style steepBRclimbs and was stunned at how easy climbing hills became on both skatesBRand striders. BRBRBasically, the focal point (COG) is midway between the heads of theBRfemurs on the horizontal plane, and halfway between navel and publicBRbone for the vertical. He says to think of it as being a fist size areaBRthat one moves, balances and stays relaxed from (that's the keyBRstatement). This focal point should be directly over the forefoot,BRspecifically just behind the balls of the feet in skating (I noticedBRthat forces the landing skate to be close and the ankle to flex). HeBRar!
gues that
the degree of flexion of ankles, knees and hips depends notBRonly on terrain but primarily on conditioning. He hasn't written aboutBRstriding, but I found that skiing from this focal point and landing onBRthe balls of my feet took me up every steep grade in the tracks, almostBRas if I were floating most of the time (of course, I had a long dose ofBRpowergrip on). For the first time, the balls of my feet were tender.BRBRThere are some people who seem to float up hills on skates. InateBRbalance is part of it -- we're not all equal there -- but I wonder ifBRthey just have learned or have this sense of using their COG that makesBRit look so relaxed.BRBROf course, there are other things that can affect how one's back feels,BRsuch as poling technique. But even that is aided by moving from theBRright wrote:BR> BR> Thanks a lot everybody for the advice. My wife started doing regularBR> morning
stretches (despite my expressed disbeliefs... perhapsBR> resentment was a factor here - whatever works) and got muscle-relaxingBR> pills prescribed. We'll work on the "C" thing when skating at FWP, NYBR> this weekend; will use the notorious "Neanderthal man" analogy, I guess.BRBRBRBRBR/BLOCKQUOTEp____________________________________ ______________brDo You Yahoo!?brTired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around brhttp://mail.yahoo.com
--0-1787141808-1107186319=:87927--

Gene Goldenfeld wrote:

Basically, the focal point (COG) is midway between the heads of the
femurs on the horizontal plane, and halfway between navel and public
bone for the vertical...

I hear that some people prefer not to make their pubic bone public...

The author (John Burns) also poses his COG approach (he calls it AIM) as
a way of cutting through the KNT/face-down-the-track debate. He does
favor a flat gliding ski, tho, claiming longer glide correlates directly
with speed. I think Nancy Fiddler used to (and still does?) teach that
way (those who see her ski comment about the length of glide). From the
perspective of instruction, the COG approach also seems in contradiction
with the current PSIA general approach of skiing "from the feet up," and
leading with the upper leg (femur) in striding. I can attest that
focusing on the COG is a whole lot more comfortable and less tense than
having to worry about driving each leg forward striding. It was just
happening (given a long patch of Powergrip). Occasionally, I would feel
too high and have to remind myself of ankle flex, but otherwise all
thoughts were on the COG and, secondarily, the balls of my feet -- and
how much I was enjoying it (while being reminded of the effects of lack
of snow locally).

GG

As it fell into place, my thoughts drifted to how to convey this to
beginners and novices who don't have our levels of experience, and how
to integrate it with other elements, such as awareness of ankle flex and
forward lean. As a practical matter, it's also lot easier imagining it
with a graphic in hand (laying on a sofa reading). Look forward to
hearing about your experience with it.

Gene

Chris Cline wrote:

When I think of the "C" position, it entails that fist-sized center of gravity that you mention-- to me it feels like you have to work from the COG in order to achieve the "opening and closing" of the C that serves to initiate poling (using your abs/core to pole). I like the mental image of the size and location of the "fist", though, because it's another way to communicate to people the feeling of having your core engaged in the skiing motion. And having your core engaged keeps you from letting your hips get behind (hyperextending your back), which for some people, results in that low back pain. I used to get some pain in that area while classic skiing, but focusing on keeping my hips (COG) high and active has prevented that.

I've often noticed that floating feeling when I focus on that core area while downhill skiing-- I'll see how it feels going uphill, too.

thanks for the (mental) picture!
Chris