Demo ski recommendations for rapidly advancing beginner?

lal_truckee wrote:

Mary Malmros wrote:

(I don't take my good skis out when the kids are just gonna ski over
'em).


What do you care about the topskin?

I don't; I do care (some) about the sidewall.

--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

foot2foot wrote:

"Mary Malmros" wrote in message


He's only been skiing eight days, so he probably hasn't been spending
excessive time doing anything. IOW, whatever he's doing wrong (or not
doing right) may not be too complicated and hard to un-learn.


There is no such thing as "wrong", no such thing as "right".
There are no such things as "unlearn" and "unteach". There is
no such thing as "correct" or "should".

I'm sorry, I thought this was a ski newsgroup, not "The Empire Strikes
Back".


--
Mary Malmros
Some days you're the windshield, other days you're the bug.

Jay Levitt wrote:

I found it difficult to make right turns - I kept catching the
inside edge of my right ski. The same skis in 153's solved that.

That's not a ski problem, it's a technique problem. You needed to roll
your right ski toward the little toe. Do that and the "inside edge"
doesn't (it can't) "catch." For some reason you did the manuver better
on the shorter skis - the skis didn't do it for you.

BTW, the same thing works on 150cm as on 225cm skis; totally unrelated
to length.

Mary Malmros wrote:
(I don't take my
good skis out when the kids are just gonna ski over 'em).

What do you care about the topskin? You've been skiing enough to know
you ski on the bottoms, not the tops.

foot2foot wrote:
The "long post" whiners are *really* going to go off about
this one, but I haven't posted for a while, so I got saved up K's.


"Jay Levitt" wrote in message

At first they put me in
167's, but between poor posture today, tired quads, and newly
positioned
feet, I found it difficult to make right turns - I kept catching
the
inside edge of my right ski. The same skis in 153's solved that.


First, understand this:. To turn left, your body must be on the
left side of the skis. To turn right, your body must be on the
right side of the skis. There is no more basic truth to skiing
than this. To continue now,

Not really. It's the turn, not the ski. Let me guess, you were
trained, or spent excessive time in the wedge/snowplow,
flattening and angulating skis, and steering around, trying to
let the parallel turn "develop on it's own"? Maybe by
"narrowing the wedge"?

It's time to get aggressive about this. Let's quit fooling around.

The problem is that you don't want to give up the big toe
edge of the inside ski. You're probably doing the same
thing in the shorter skis, you just don't really notice it as
much. It's probably not as simple as just "stance" either,
but it's likely not that *much* more complicated. If you
haven't been able to get *really* forward on the skis yet,
you might be very well advised to become so. A lot of
wedge addiction can be related to being a bit in the back
seat.

You don't turn on the back of them. You turn on the front
of them.

OK, try these: First, for drill, maybe lots of it, ski with effective
body position, *especially* hands *forward*, well in front of
your hips, start and continue a nice, full, round half circle turn,
halfway through the turn, pick up the tail of the inside ski,
(maybe six inches or more) leaving the tip on the snow, then
finish the turn in that fashion. Repeat.

Another thing you could try, start some turns with a lead
change. At the end of one turn, about the time you're ready to
cross your body over the skis to start the new turn, put the
*inside ski* into the lead, a little ahead of the outside ski. It
really frees things up for some people. Put the inside ski ahead,
pull the outside ski back, or do a bit of a scissors. Lead change.

Another thing, as you make turns, pull the skis back
underneath you as far as the boots will possibly let you, so
nearly all your weight is on the balls of your feet, as if you
were about to spring up to make a basketball jump shot. From
that position, just twist your legs in the hip socket in the
direction you want to turn. Then, for that matter, since you're
already in position to make a jump shot, why don't you make
just the teeniest little "hop" forward to initiate a turn and change
the edges, then steer the skis by turning the legs in the hip
sockets?

Just a note on this, you're trying to pressure the front of the
skis with the *feet*, not necessarily by pushing the legs into the
front of the boot. Flexing the ankles is the key here. You get
your weight on the balls of your feet by straightening the
*ankles* a bit. There may be some shin boot contact, but
hopefully no real *pressure* there. Just ignore the boots. Use
your feet and ankles.

170's should be just fine. The problem is, in cut up
crud, the shorter ski won't "surf" over and "cut through" all the
junk, so you get beat up and thrown around (*another* whole
problem you have to handle) by every little bump. With a
longer, "all mountain" ski, the faster you go, the more the ski
will begin to flop and pop up and down at tip and tail,
absorbing a lot of that stuff. It doesn't happen all that well on a
150 or 160.

Besides that consideration, a short ski won't float well in
powder, but most people might demo, or actually own
another ski for those conditions.

Shorter skis are obviously easier to turn and control at lower
speed, and can carve a shorter radius turn. But to be quite
honest, all in all they're a pain if they're your only ski.

foot2foot:

I love your advice! It's helped me a lot with my skiing. I have 160s
and from some of the posts, at 5'5" they may be too long for me, but I
like the longer length, especially now that my speed is up, my control
is much better. When I bought them I wanted a ski that I could use when
I got better, not just as a beginner ski because I know I won't have
the money to buy another pair anytime in the near future.

Martha

In article ,
says...
What do you care about the topskin? You've been skiing enough to know
you ski on the bottoms, not the tops.

Jeez. No *wonder* I can't make right turns.

Thanks for the tip!

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

In article ,
says...
The "long post" whiners are *really* going to go off about
this one, but I haven't posted for a while, so I got saved up K's.


"Jay Levitt" wrote in message

At first they put me in
167's, but between poor posture today, tired quads, and newly positioned
feet, I found it difficult to make right turns - I kept catching the
inside edge of my right ski. The same skis in 153's solved that.


Not really. It's the turn, not the ski. Let me guess, you were
trained, or spent excessive time in the wedge/snowplow,
flattening and angulating skis, and steering around, trying to
let the parallel turn "develop on it's own"? Maybe by
"narrowing the wedge"?

Nope. As Mary pointed out, with only two weekends on the slope before I
began private lessons, I haven't spent excessive time in anything but
the hot tub. (And what's the deal with hot tubs closing at 9pm,
anyway?)

The problem is that you don't want to give up the big toe
edge of the inside ski. You're probably doing the same
thing in the shorter skis, you just don't really notice it as
much.

Naturally; I realize that if I were turning properly, the length of the
ski wouldn't be a big impediment. I was just mentioning my lack of
progress so far, since it's going to be a big decision point for buying
skis right now. (Naturally, by next season, if I don't have that
licked, I'm taking up bowling instead.)

It's probably not as simple as just "stance" either,
but it's likely not that *much* more complicated.

No, it really is. I am horribly inflexible - can't do a 90-degree
hamstring stretch, my right ankle won't dorsiflex at all, can't bend my
neck more than 45 degrees. I have mild scoliosis, and one each torn and
herniated discs in my lumbar and cervical spine. I have flat feet, I
pronate severely, I have an anterior pelvic tilt, and my legs are
externally rotated. It is, in essence, a miracle I can walk at all, and
I am thinking of charging money for people to watch.

Naturally, I'm doing daily stretches, PT and exercises to try to correct
this. However, it does make it significantly harder to make right
turns, because my natural stance (which compensates for all these
imbalances) puts my hip squarely in the way of where my knee needs to
be. Er, not literally, but you know what I mean.

The boot issue has made matters worse, because I haven't done more than
three runs in a row with any given configuration! Shims, heel lifts,
new boots, new footbeds, new skis, wrong skis, you name it.. I just
don't have enough muscle memory yet. That said, at the end of my last
lesson, I was cruising down doing perfect parallel turns on both sides;
I just haven't locked that in to the point where I can do them every
single time out.

OK, try these: First, for drill, maybe lots of it, ski with effective
body position, *especially* hands *forward*, well in front of
your hips, start and continue a nice, full, round half circle turn,
halfway through the turn, pick up the tail of the inside ski,
(maybe six inches or more) leaving the tip on the snow, then
finish the turn in that fashion. Repeat.

Yep, that works no problem, and I try to use the muscle memory from that
to lessen the weight on my right foot.

Another thing you could try, start some turns with a lead
change. At the end of one turn, about the time you're ready to
cross your body over the skis to start the new turn, put the
*inside ski* into the lead, a little ahead of the outside ski.

This one was really the key to understanding what a right turn should
feel like for me.

Another thing, as you make turns, pull the skis back
underneath you as far as the boots will possibly let you, so
nearly all your weight is on the balls of your feet, as if you
were about to spring up to make a basketball jump shot.

I like this one, and will try it soon. This is a much better mental
image than flexing into the boot.

Besides that consideration, a short ski won't float well in
powder, but most people might demo, or actually own
another ski for those conditions.

I'm skiing largely in New England... what's powder? I am going to
France for a week, though.

--
Jay Levitt |
Wellesley, MA | Hi!
Faster: jay at jay dot eff-em | Where are we going?
http://www.jay.fm | Why am I in this handbasket?

"foot2foot" wrote in message

There is no such thing as "wrong", no such thing as "right".
There are no such things as "unlearn"

Bull****.
as a self taught skiier from an early age in Alaska living on a hill.
I had some terrible habits.
the only reason I got better was from learning CORRECT form.
that big boy is called unlearn, or to be grammitically correct to re-learn.

"Jay Levitt" wrote in message

No, it really is. I am horribly inflexible - can't do a 90-degree
hamstring stretch, my right ankle won't dorsiflex at all, can't bend my
neck more than 45 degrees. I have mild scoliosis, and one each torn and
herniated discs in my lumbar and cervical spine. I have flat feet, I
pronate severely, I have an anterior pelvic tilt, and my legs are
externally rotated. It is, in essence, a miracle I can walk at all, and
I am thinking of charging money for people to watch.

Damn you must be my missing twin.
I have almost all those traits too.
I don't have the pelvic tilt. but I have four fused verts in my neck which
adds another degree of diffuclty it also adds another 30 percosets a month
to my beer habit.
OK I don't have the scoliosis eitherG

Naturally, I'm doing daily stretches, PT and exercises to try to correct
this. However, it does make it significantly harder to make right
turns, because my natural stance (which compensates for all these
imbalances) puts my hip squarely in the way of where my knee needs to
be. Er, not literally, but you know what I mean.

Daily PT with added pain goes along way.

The boot issue has made matters worse, because I haven't done more than
three runs in a row with any given configuration!

Hmmm.
well I'll have to say that good fitting boots is a must.
I had to trade off one of my first born to get a perfect fitted pair.

Jay Levitt wrote:
So, now that the boots fit, I'm thinking of getting skis. Part of me
wants to keep renting, since I know that my needs will be changing
rapidly, but on the other hand, there's something to be said for
learning on a consistent ski, and since I plan to ski at *least* 15-20
more days this season, it could save some money.

I'm 33, male, 5'9", 180 pounds but losing weight, wear tightly-fitted
size-26 X-Wave 8's (in 2004 blue, because blue is faster), and have
skied 8 days so far in my life: a weekend last season at Sunday River,
and another this season, followed by three days at Sugarloaf and this
morning at Stratton. When I got to Sugarloaf, I was utilizing the
"flail and scream" technique, but I took some private lessons there, and
I'm now comfortable with fairly sharp, linked, completed parallel turns
at a decent clip - faster than granny, slower than a snowboarder.

The two ASC resorts rented me Rossignols; they looked like Bandits but I
can't imagine that they were. I don't remember the Sunday River
lengths, but at Sugarloaf I was on 150s. Today at Stratton I demoed
some K2 Omni 5.5's, and was fairly impressed - I could really feel the
mountain. (Of course, this was my first time without numb feet, thanks
to the boot issue from the other thread..) At first they put me in
167's, but between poor posture today, tired quads, and newly positioned
feet, I found it difficult to make right turns - I kept catching the
inside edge of my right ski. The same skis in 153's solved that.

Bill (the GMOL pedorthist) recommended that I not even think about
buying 150s or 160s - it's better to keep renting until I overcome the
stance issue that makes 170s not work for me. I'll buy that; do you all
agree?

That depends. My everyday, easy going mid-fat Fischers
are 178 cm. My high performance Volkl 6stars are 168
(or so)cm. I'm 6' tall, 200# and have been skiing for
50 odd years. Probably what you have been renting as
ordinary "rental slabs" at an ASC resort is a Rossi Cut.
This is a pretty good ski. I had a wonderful 3 days
skiing various places at Lake Tahoe in early December.
The skis I rented were 165 cm. I mostly kept up with
LAL (who posts here) and kicked the butt of a 46 year
old orthopedic surgeon from SF (I've got 15 years on
him) who skis 3 days a week at Heavenly, with these skis.

It doesn't sound like your are ready for high performance
skis quite yet, but you are getting there quickly. A good
entry level shaped ski that you rent will get you quite
far, especially when conditions are good. Here in the east
IMO the big reason for high perf skis is ice and boiler
plate. When presented with a "hard and fast" day try a
pair of All Mountain Free Ride style skis. No more than
165cm, not overly stiff (Volkl 4 star or 5 star, but not
6 star, for instance) Skip racing type skis either GS or
slalom. Too much work to stay "in the groove". I mention
Volkl only because I own a pair. Other manufacturers
make great skis. Salomon and Head come to mind in addition
to Fischer.

You might also demo mid-fats at some point. Again there is
a selection from various manufacturers.

If your style is tending toward a more carving way of
skiing, go for more side cut. If you are getting into bumps
and skiing everything including what would be ludicrous
to carve, go for the mid-fats.

That said, what other skis should I demo? I have absolutely no idea
what makes one particular model more or less suitable for me than
another, and ski magazines and web sites have been no help either - I've
yet to find more than a paragraph on any particular model. Even
usenet's not too useful since the model names change every year. But if
I were to look at K2's web site (say, with special peril-sensitive
sunglasses and some Pepto Bismol), I'd never have picked the Omni 5.5,
because they call that a "blue-black" ski, and I'm squarely in the
greens. Everyone I ask says "just try a few", but how am I even
supposed to pick which ones to try? Color scheme? I look good in blue,
and I have combination skin.

Color scheme! My wife is just so relieved that I no
longer ski with school bus yellow boots (the are now
bright red, she says it goes better with my coloring).

My Volks are black with 6 white stars. My Fischers
are black with orange flames on the tips. I'm afraid
that "what works" must rule in this case.

As for clothing, I have three jackets I wear, other
than my red mountain uniform jacket. One is red also
but that's mostly a spring shell, another is blue,
but the style is kind of dated, so the one I wear
most is black. All of my pants are black. My helmet
and gloves are black. If I had the voice, I could
probably pass for Darth Vader.

VtSkier