Okay to ask basic questions?

AstroPax wrote:



Lisa,

Just out of curiosity, exactly where in the world did you get "hooked"
at? Was it forced upon you, so to speak, or did you do it
voluntarily?


Sorry, I didn't answer your question completely, ignoring the "where".
So far, I've only been to Boreal, 4 days now. But since Boreal is now
closed, I hope to get in one or hopefully two trips to Alpine Meadows
and/or Squaw Valley.

I have my own gear now, and I'd very much like to use it some more this
year

Lisa

Lisa Horton wrote:

AstroPax wrote:


Lisa,

Just out of curiosity, exactly where in the world did you get "hooked"
at? Was it forced upon you, so to speak, or did you do it
voluntarily?



Sorry, I didn't answer your question completely, ignoring the "where".
So far, I've only been to Boreal, 4 days now. But since Boreal is now
closed, I hope to get in one or hopefully two trips to Alpine Meadows
and/or Squaw Valley.

Alpine has 17inches of new over the last week - what that means is some
cushion and fresh feeling surface, but likely no powder by now. By the
weekend we will be back to corn snow (which is wonderful stuff, if you
don't know.) Weather report is spotty for the weekend - should be able
to predict better by Thursday, but I'll be out anyway, anyday - weather
is no obstacle for the committed (in both senses of the word.)

BTW, it's well known amoung the locals that invariably Alpine has better
snow (and more snow) than Squaw. We've even had some snow (no buildup,
unfortunately) in Truckee. Enough to get the occasional tourist sideways
on the road, anyway.


I have my own gear now, and I'd very much like to use it some more this
year

Dam - too late: we usually advise folks they should rent until they are
convinced they will be skiing 10 days or more a year. So you better get
out there several more times this year, to amortize your investment. Or
maybe money is meaningless - in which case send me some.

lal_truckee wrote:

Lisa Horton wrote:

AstroPax wrote:


Lisa,

Just out of curiosity, exactly where in the world did you get "hooked"
at? Was it forced upon you, so to speak, or did you do it
voluntarily?



Sorry, I didn't answer your question completely, ignoring the "where".
So far, I've only been to Boreal, 4 days now. But since Boreal is now
closed, I hope to get in one or hopefully two trips to Alpine Meadows
and/or Squaw Valley.

Alpine has 17inches of new over the last week - what that means is some
cushion and fresh feeling surface, but likely no powder by now. By the
weekend we will be back to corn snow (which is wonderful stuff, if you
don't know.) Weather report is spotty for the weekend - should be able
to predict better by Thursday, but I'll be out anyway, anyday - weather
is no obstacle for the committed (in both senses of the word.)

mmmmm, more snow sounds good!


BTW, it's well known amoung the locals that invariably Alpine has better
snow (and more snow) than Squaw. We've even had some snow (no buildup,
unfortunately) in Truckee. Enough to get the occasional tourist sideways
on the road, anyway.

That's VERY good to know, thank you! Nice that the place that's way
cheaper gets more/better snow



I have my own gear now, and I'd very much like to use it some more this
year

Dam - too late: we usually advise folks they should rent until they are
convinced they will be skiing 10 days or more a year. So you better get
out there several more times this year, to amortize your investment. Or
maybe money is meaningless - in which case send me some.

Oh, money's very meaningful to me! I've skied one day and a half day on
my new boots which I got first, and another day and half day on the
whole setup. I'm hoping to get 3-5 full day equivalents on my own gear
before the end of this season.

At any rate, the first trip was a proof of concept kind of thing for
me. Could I still balance well? Could my body handle whatever physical
demands skiing presents? Would I actually enjoy it? Is it something
that I could get good at?

The first trip, 1.5 days, provided an affirmative answer to all the
questions, so I was already fairly certain that I'd be skiing at least
10 days a year. I'd done the calculation myself, and found similar
logic on skiing web sites, so feel pretty good about the 10 days
guideline. Except that boots that really fit are worth more than rental
boots, and skis that you can become familiar with seem like they would
be more valuable than rental skis.

Now, each persons calculation is unique, as each person spends a
different amount of money on their gear, IMHO. I paid, well, relatively
little. Not including clothing, I spent only $340. For that, I got
Lange Frame 6 boots (several seasons old, but brand new in the box)
which fit my narrow feet really well, Rossignol Saphir Snow 2 skis,
which seem to be pretty appropriate for my level, and did work
noticeably better for me than rental skis of the same length, Salomon
S710 bindings, and some Leki poles.

I really like the skis, when I put more weight on the stance foot I can
clearly feel and see the effect, I can actually feel the ski flex and
interact differently with the snow. I like how it's easy to make the
tail slide out by moving my weight just slightly forward.

Yeah, I'm going to get my money's worth of this gear all right!

Lisa

Lisa Horton asked:

Just out of curiosity, how do you know of my photography, which has not
yet ever involved snow or snow sports?

I am sure Astro did what I did and went to lisahorton.net and got forwarded to
your photography site. Since you were new to this newsgroup it seemed like a
logical thing to do. (Can't be too sure about some of the contributors to this
site.)

Your photos are very good. If you check out Astro's links you will see his
excellent photos of ski scenes.

Welcome to the sport of skiing.

Fred

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:34:21 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:

my photography, which has not yet ever involved snow or snow sports?

Well, if you are in fact "hooked", then it (your photog) *will* get to
that subject matter, eventually.

Trust me on this one...it's inevitable!

-Astro

---
maximum exposure f/2.8
http://www.xmission.com/~hound/astro/03-04/index.htm
---

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:53:42 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:
....
I really like the skis, when I put more weight on the stance foot...

I see Harb (or one of his books) got to you before PSIA..

I like how it's easy to make the tail slide out by moving my weight
just slightly forward...

Harald would be most proud of you. :evil-grin:


Lisa, I could be wrong, but it looks like you inadvertently stumbled
into a hornet's nest of controversy between two schools of ski
instruction.

The reason I suspect this is because Harald Harb's teaching method
uses the term, "stance foot," and is accused of turning novices into
terminal intermediates who, for the rest of eternity, are doomed to
skidding and not carving their turns (ie, exactly the way you have
described your early skiing).

FYI, Harald is a controversial figure and probably less than a few
hundred ski instructors in the USA follow his instruction methodology.
OTOH, his books promise a lot and sell like hotcakes.

Harald's nemisis is the PSIA (Professional Ski Instructors of
America). It is the "gold standard" for ski instruction methodology
in the USA. As I recall PSIA has something like 20,000+ member -
instructors. They try to give every student a blend of on-snow
skills, particularly carving skills which will not dead-end at the
intermediate level.

In case it isn't already obvious, I'm a PSIA member and might be
considered biased, but should you want to get involved in some superb
discussions of ski technique, albeit PSIA-style, check out:

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...?ubb=get_daily


Finally, for reasons which should have been abundantly clear if you
read the FAQ for this newsgroup, I most strongly suggest you
immediately switch over to using an alias and give out absolutely NO
real-world personal information like your name or webside URL on RSA.
It's probably not a bad idea to follow this policy as much as is
possible on the Internet (consistent with your advertising goals), but
it's especially important here on rec.skiing.alpine..

Alpine Instructor wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:53:42 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:
...

I really like the skis, when I put more weight on the stance foot...


I see Harb (or one of his books) got to you before PSIA..


I like how it's easy to make the tail slide out by moving my weight
just slightly forward...


Harald would be most proud of you. :evil-grin:


Lisa, I could be wrong, but it looks like you inadvertently stumbled
into a hornet's nest of controversy between two schools of ski
instruction.

Well, I for one haven't brought up skiing technique or instruction
methods even though I too noticed the "stance foot"/"tail slide"
comments because I wanted to avoid involving her in the ongoing hissy
fit PSIA has whenever someone disagrees with the official word. But
given the insipid comments in the rest of your post I suppose it's
important that newbies like Lisa know that there are alternate schools
of thought aoout learning to ski.

PSIA is one such school. For unknown reasons PSIA seems to have become
much more rigid in its thinking in the last decade or so. Formerly - say
15+ years ago - PSIA stressed that everyone learned differently and the
instructor's task was to discover how a student learned and adapt the
teaching to the student; I've got PSIA publications to support this
claim. These days they seem much more convinced they know the "One True
Way." Shades of Hannes Schneider (look him up.)

Anyway, back to "stance foot" and Harb and Lito and PSIA:
I'll say four things.
One, whatever works for you is best for you, and only you can define the
level of skiing you wish to attain.
Two, watch the best skiers on the off-piste, steep, deep, bumps, etc.;
they will be continuously adapting their style to the immediate
conditions; sometimes "stance foot" sometimes two foot sometimes
airborne sometimes with constant surface contact, but always dynamic.
Three, stance foot doesn't hinder carving - it accentuates carving.
Comments counter that basic observation are so off base as to imply
never personally watching high-level skiing.
Four, only wusses think high level skiing is two footed carved turns on
the runout groomer right under the lift, leaving railroad tracks with
too short too soft too wide skis. They need to test themselve more
against constantly varying, difficult, conditions on the rest of the
mountain.

And a final comment - when the off piste conditions are difficult -
crusty, or slushy, or mashed potatos, etc., where are all these off-duty
PSIA level 3s young whippersnappers who should be leading the way? Why
do they wait for an old fart to ski the conditions first and show them
it's OK to get out there?

After all, the mantra of skiing, the goal of all the effort, the glory
and the reward is:
Toutes les neige, tous les terrains, tout le vitesse.

The reason I suspect this is because Harald Harb's teaching method
uses the term, "stance foot," and is accused of turning novices into
terminal intermediates who, for the rest of eternity, are doomed to
skidding and not carving their turns (ie, exactly the way you have
described your early skiing).

FYI, Harald is a controversial figure and probably less than a few
hundred ski instructors in the USA follow his instruction methodology.
OTOH, his books promise a lot and sell like hotcakes.

Harald's nemisis is the PSIA (Professional Ski Instructors of
America). It is the "gold standard" for ski instruction methodology
in the USA. As I recall PSIA has something like 20,000+ member -
instructors. They try to give every student a blend of on-snow
skills, particularly carving skills which will not dead-end at the
intermediate level.

In case it isn't already obvious, I'm a PSIA member and might be
considered biased, but should you want to get involved in some superb
discussions of ski technique, albeit PSIA-style, check out:

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...?ubb=get_daily


Finally, for reasons which should have been abundantly clear if you
read the FAQ for this newsgroup, I most strongly suggest you
immediately switch over to using an alias and give out absolutely NO
real-world personal information like your name or webside URL on RSA.
It's probably not a bad idea to follow this policy as much as is
possible on the Internet (consistent with your advertising goals), but
it's especially important here on rec.skiing.alpine..

Alpine Instructor wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:53:42 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:
...
I really like the skis, when I put more weight on the stance foot...

I see Harb (or one of his books) got to you before PSIA..

Actually, the book "Breakthrough on the new skis", but I started off
with a private lesson from a PSIA member. Although I don't think she
used the term stance foot, she did talk about putting weight on the
outside foot in a turn.


I like how it's easy to make the tail slide out by moving my weight
just slightly forward...

Harald would be most proud of you. :evil-grin:

I did manage to get to a point of carving a few, but my primary goal is
enough control that I can feel safe and enjoy myself.

Lisa, I could be wrong, but it looks like you inadvertently stumbled
into a hornet's nest of controversy between two schools of ski
instruction.

Kind of sounds like it One lesson from a PSIA member, then reading
the Lito book... I'd picked up hints of this controversy in my
research, but only hints.


The reason I suspect this is because Harald Harb's teaching method
uses the term, "stance foot," and is accused of turning novices into
terminal intermediates who, for the rest of eternity, are doomed to
skidding and not carving their turns (ie, exactly the way you have
described your early skiing).

In the Lito book, he mentions Harb and expresses gratitude, but he says
his goal is to get people out of the intermediate level, expressly
trying to help people not get stuck there. That's what he says anyway.

The instructor showed me how to skid the turns, but when I watched
people on the high slopes from the lift chair, or watched skiing video
on the web, I didn't see a lot of skidded turns. So my goal is to have
the skidded turn as an option, but try to do the carved turn and benefit
from the new design skis. So I'm not sure what camp that points me
towards


FYI, Harald is a controversial figure and probably less than a few
hundred ski instructors in the USA follow his instruction methodology.
OTOH, his books promise a lot and sell like hotcakes.

Would you include the Lito book "Breakthrough On The New Skis" in the
Harb camp then?


Harald's nemisis is the PSIA (Professional Ski Instructors of
America). It is the "gold standard" for ski instruction methodology
in the USA. As I recall PSIA has something like 20,000+ member -
instructors. They try to give every student a blend of on-snow
skills, particularly carving skills which will not dead-end at the
intermediate level.

This SOUNDS like what the Lito book is teaching, but he doesn't seem to
have a high opinion of most ski instructors.


In case it isn't already obvious, I'm a PSIA member and might be
considered biased, but should you want to get involved in some superb
discussions of ski technique, albeit PSIA-style, check out:

http://www.epicski.com/cgi-bin/ultim...?ubb=get_daily

Well, your alignment was obvious, if not the reason. I will check out
the discussion though.


Finally, for reasons which should have been abundantly clear if you
read the FAQ for this newsgroup, I most strongly suggest you
immediately switch over to using an alias and give out absolutely NO
real-world personal information like your name or webside URL on RSA.
It's probably not a bad idea to follow this policy as much as is
possible on the Internet (consistent with your advertising goals), but
it's especially important here on rec.skiing.alpine..

The email address I use here is a throwaway one, and I use extensive and
multi level filtering on that account. I've seen the trolls here, and
I've seen worse on other groups. Good to see new participants being
warned though, not enough of that around Usenet.

On this subject, as a result of some previous troll activities, I did
some research into trolling. The anonymous remailers and mail to news
gateways are what enable the trolls to pursue their goals free from
consequences. Now, these tools do have a legitimate use, as many people
in the world live in countries where they are not free to express their
views. The problem with these tools is that the people who operate them
are unwilling to do even the smallest thing to fix the problems that
they enable. For example, when faced with the reasonable idea of
disallowing anonymous cross-posting, which has NO legitimate uses, they
adamantly refused to even consider the idea. Thus, unless something
changes, Usenet as we know it is on a slow (so far) and inexorable slide
into chaos and unusability. Enjoy it while it lasts, because we're at
the beginning of the end.

Lisa

AstroPax wrote:

On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 09:34:21 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:

my photography, which has not yet ever involved snow or snow sports?

Well, if you are in fact "hooked", then it (your photog) *will* get to
that subject matter, eventually.

Trust me on this one...it's inevitable!


Oh, I trust you on this. But I'm still curious to hear about your "Lisa
Horton Photography fame" comment

Lisa

lal_truckee wrote:

Alpine Instructor wrote:
On Tue, 20 Apr 2004 10:53:42 -0700, Lisa Horton
wrote:
...

I really like the skis, when I put more weight on the stance foot...


I see Harb (or one of his books) got to you before PSIA..


I like how it's easy to make the tail slide out by moving my weight
just slightly forward...


Harald would be most proud of you. :evil-grin:


Lisa, I could be wrong, but it looks like you inadvertently stumbled
into a hornet's nest of controversy between two schools of ski
instruction.

Well, I for one haven't brought up skiing technique or instruction
methods even though I too noticed the "stance foot"/"tail slide"
comments because I wanted to avoid involving her in the ongoing hissy
fit PSIA has whenever someone disagrees with the official word. But
given the insipid comments in the rest of your post I suppose it's
important that newbies like Lisa know that there are alternate schools
of thought aoout learning to ski.

I'm starting to get that picture


PSIA is one such school. For unknown reasons PSIA seems to have become
much more rigid in its thinking in the last decade or so. Formerly - say
15+ years ago - PSIA stressed that everyone learned differently and the
instructor's task was to discover how a student learned and adapt the
teaching to the student; I've got PSIA publications to support this
claim. These days they seem much more convinced they know the "One True
Way." Shades of Hannes Schneider (look him up.)

I've seen comments about him, apparently a very rigid idea about how
skiing should be taught.


Anyway, back to "stance foot" and Harb and Lito and PSIA:
I'll say four things.
One, whatever works for you is best for you, and only you can define the
level of skiing you wish to attain.

I want to get to at least mid level intermediate, better if I can. I'm
generally pretty good at balance/movement activities, so I don't see any
barrier to getting pretty good at this.

Two, watch the best skiers on the off-piste, steep, deep, bumps, etc.;
they will be continuously adapting their style to the immediate
conditions; sometimes "stance foot" sometimes two foot sometimes
airborne sometimes with constant surface contact, but always dynamic.

I watch them from the lift chair, or the ones on the more advanced
slopes above. What looks fun and attractive to me is the way some are
very fluid. The idea that it's more about finesse control than brute
force control appeals to me, lacking in brute force.

Three, stance foot doesn't hinder carving - it accentuates carving.
Comments counter that basic observation are so off base as to imply
never personally watching high-level skiing.

What I know: Putting my weight on the outside foot makes my turns more
carve like with less skid, and seems to give me more choice about
retaining or shedding speed. But I also know that at this point in my
learning process, a skid turn can change my direction more quickly, if
less elegantly.

What I think: Skid/slide turns and carve turns seem like just two
different tools to use when appropriate.

Four, only wusses think high level skiing is two footed carved turns on
the runout groomer right under the lift, leaving railroad tracks with
too short too soft too wide skis. They need to test themselve more
against constantly varying, difficult, conditions on the rest of the
mountain.

My goal is to master one level of terrain first, then move on up. I
wouldn't even think about blue runs until I can ski all areas of the
green runs with control, confidence, and speed.


And a final comment - when the off piste conditions are difficult -
crusty, or slushy, or mashed potatos, etc., where are all these off-duty
PSIA level 3s young whippersnappers who should be leading the way? Why
do they wait for an old fart to ski the conditions first and show them
it's OK to get out there?

You've lost me here


After all, the mantra of skiing, the goal of all the effort, the glory
and the reward is:
Toutes les neige, tous les terrains, tout le vitesse.


Sounds good, especially tout le vitesse

Lisa