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#1
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double poling technique
htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV
DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEThis is my first posting on this mailing list. I'm pretty new in cross country skiing. I live in the Netherlands, so here's no snow and no hills :-( /DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEI train for the Birkebeinerrennet in Norway on march 19th. I do a lot of double poling workouts on my rollerskies, but unfortunately without technical coaching./DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEMy question is: Why isn't it good to 'sit' after the push. I see on tv that with double poling the knees aren't bent much while the upper body bends over so that the body hooks in about 90 degrees. Besides that I can see that the lower legs are pushed forward, so the body mass is lifted more to the back of the skies. /DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEWhen I try this technique the result is quite a pain in the lower back (also due to my 'spinal stenosis'). With some trial and error I found the best technique for my back (and speed);First get my hips and shoulders as high and forward as possible to get a good hang in my poles, and during the push moving into a more or less speedskating position (knees bends to almost 90 degrees, weight a littlebit on the back of the skies and relaxing shoulders. I can do extensive endurance double poling for at least 1,5 hour in about 9 miles/h (flat terrain), without hurting my back./DIV DIV class=RTEIsn't it correct to say that bending your knees more makes a longer push possible? And isn't it so that shifting your weight to the back makes you glide faster, like downhill skiing?/DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEWill I gain much speed when I just try harder on the 'good technique'? I don't need to win the beauty contest on technique. I just want to go as fast as possible with the least effort :-)/DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEThanks for any advice,BRWilfred /DIV/divbr clear=allhrMSN Search, for accurate results! a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNL/2734??PS=47575" target="_top"click here/a /html |
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#2
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Welcome! What format are you using to send this? Text only is
preferable. There has been a shift from straight-legged double poling to using the legs more, ending up in a very partial squat. For example, look at the video of the men's 50K race yesterday (e.g., last video at 1:30, 8:50, etc.). Even though they are going slow because of the falling snow, you'll see them bring their hips forward, sometimes come up on the balls of the feet and then pole into the upper legs, creating a 1/4 squat. Hands follow through to just past the hips and, if done quickly at the end, it creates a final thrust forward with the feet (it can also be done intentionally from the ankles, but from the arms is more stable). All this creates more continuous power because it can be done more quickly than the older style, and it can be done in a more relaxed way when desired (such as in this race most of the time). It is also much easier on the back, allowing it (and the legs) to stretch without having to extend as far. I don't think the push is longer, since the follow through is generally shorter, depending on the speed and snow conditions. Rather, shorter push is compensated for by higher turnover and more efficient use of the upper legs, the strongest part of the body. Remember, poling is about propulsion and has two key points: 1) starting down from an almost vertical pole position (elbows flexed mid-range) aids in creating better push off through the ski camber (in that sense, they are like crutches); and 2) using the upper body helps increase the arm/hand acceleration through the area where the poles become relatively horizontal and, thus, where the most propulsion forward occurs. A great double pole demo to watch is Kris Freeman in 2003: http://avari181.mt.luth.se/pub2/WorldChamp-03/ -- WCRelayMen2.avi (8:20-9:10). Gene Tall Willy wrote: htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEThis is my first posting on this mailing list. I'm pretty new in cross country skiing. I live in the Netherlands, so here's no snow and no hills :-( /DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEI train for the Birkebeinerrennet in Norway on march 19th. I do a lot of double poling workouts on my rollerskies, but unfortunately without technical coaching./DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEMy question is: Why isn't it good to 'sit' after the push. I see on tv that with double poling the knees aren't bent much while the upper body bends over so that the body hooks in about 90 degrees. Besides that I can see that the lower legs are pushed forward, so the body mass is lifted more to the back of the skies. /DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEWhen I try this technique the result is quite a pain in the lower back (also due to my 'spinal stenosis'). With some trial and error I found the best technique for my back (and speed);First get my hips and shoulders as high and forward as possible to get a good hang in my poles, and during the push moving into a more or less speedskating position (knees bends to almost 90 degrees, weight a littlebit on the back of the skies and relaxing shoulders. I can do extensive endurance double poling for at least 1,5 hour in about 9 miles/h (flat terrain), without hurting my back./DIV DIV class=RTEIsn't it correct to say that bending your knees more makes a longer push possible? And isn't it so that shifting your weight to the back makes you glide faster, like downhill skiing?/DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEWill I gain much speed when I just try harder on the 'good technique'? I don't need to win the beauty contest on technique. I just want to go as fast as possible with the least effort :-)/DIV DIV class=RTE /DIV DIV class=RTEThanks for any advice,BRWilfred /DIV/divbr clear=allhrMSN Search, for accurate results! a href="http://g.msn.com/8HMBENNL/2734??PS=47575" target="_top"click here/a /html |
#4
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one mo
a good way to train DP is to find a long, straight and steep uphill and DP it! This teaches you 1-to use your abs as you should 2-keep frequency high hips are not very up and forward on this training, and you might sit a bit more. But hey, it's a training for the two point above (Tall Willy) wrote in message ... htmldiv style='background-color:'DIV class=RTEHi all,/DIV |
#5
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Hei Lars,
Thanks for your remarks. start running some uphills, bikeride or something that builds your legs. Birken is not that big doubleple/DP race. I know. I'm looking forward to the first 20km of the race :-). Basically I train the double poling, because it makes my arms stronger and I don't like to do the striding on the rollerskis. And ofcourse I train more than that. Roadbiking when the weather is good, offroad biking, spinning and inside interval training on the cycletrainer. So I train 3 times a week on a bike and one time on the rollerskies. I hope that will do the job. Get a friend to film you DP. How is frequency and armangles and bodyposition? I haven't seen myself on video, but I think the armangles are ok, but the frequency might be to slow. Wilfred __________________________________________________ _______________ MSN Search, for accurate results! http://search.msn.nl |
#6
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Hi, Willy,
Welcome to the board. Are you training with a group in the Netherlands? I have met some keen skiers from there who do a lot of roller-ski-ing. If you like, I could send you a link to the ski federation who could perhaps put you in touch with some local skiers. You may find it easier to train with a group. Technique advice in writing can be hard to visualise. If you are finding it hard to copy the elite when you DP because of your back problems - don't worry - just find what works for you. It sounds like you are going well. I was taught the same method as Lars, for racing. However, my son is a good youth racer and excellent at DP (at least by British standards). He goes up and down a lot in the legs. He plants the poles and then compresses his legs and upper body, so dropping his body weight onto the poles. This uses his body weight and abdominal and leg strength to accelerate the poles backwards and himself forwards. He follows through with the arms, and then bounces back for the next "stroke". He is careful that his legs do not absorb the effort from the upper body. He goes very fast. The down side of this is that he cannot keep going; it is a sprint technique, so you will have to evolve this to suit you for a marathon race. You might like to try the following way to coach yourself for efficient technique. This to use a trick some swimmers use. You play "golf". Find yourself a straight piece of track you can DP, and mark the ends. About 40 strokes long, although the exact length is not important. Then (after your warm-up of course) ski as fast as you can. Time how long it takes you and count how many strokes. Then add the strokes to the time in seconds - that is your "handicap". Now set about improving your handicap, which you can do either by going faster or by reducing the number of strokes. I have found that a useful test of what works and what doesn't. It does have the drawback that the technique that works best over a short distance may be too tiring for a long distance, so you will have to keep experimenting. Also check out the course profile for the Birkebeinerrenn. I haven't done the race but I have skied the second half of the course a number of times. There is a long steep climb to start, and a long descent to finish, so you need to keep working on other techniques too. The part I have skied in the middle was undulating, and if the conditions are right you may be able to DP a fair bit. Don't forget to practice skiing with a rucksack. Good luck and happy skiing Alex |
#7
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one mo
a good way to train DP is to find a long, straight and steep uphill and DP it! Have you ever been to the Netherlands? I live below sealevel so the closest that looks like a hill is a bridge :-) But there's enough wind and straight roads, so a DP against a heavy wind might help. I'll try. And hurray, there's a lot of snow right now, so I skied for the first time this winter. Wilfred __________________________________________________ _______________ Play online games with your friends with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/ |
#8
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Hi Alex,
Thank you very much for your advice. Are you training with a group in the Netherlands? I have met some keen skiers from there who do a lot of roller-ski-ing. If you like, I could send you a link to the ski federation who could perhaps put you in touch with some local skiers. You may find it easier to train with a group. Technique advice in writing can be hard to visualise. If you mean the Nerove (www.rolskitotaal.nl), I already contacted them, but unfortunately there aren't any serious rollerskiing in the north of the Netherlands. There's a good group in Utrecht, but that's a two hours drive for me. And the cross country group here in the neighbourhood is too recreational. You have to know. Cross country skiing (langlaufen) is seen as the wintersport activity for those loosers that don't can/dare downhill skiing :-). So I have to train alone and have know and than some technical tips from my Norwegina friends during the holidays. I was taught the same method as Lars, for racing. However, my son is a good youth racer and excellent at DP (at least by British standards). He goes up and down a lot in the legs. He plants the poles and then compresses his legs and upper body, so dropping his body weight onto the poles. This uses his body weight and abdominal and leg strength to accelerate the poles backwards and himself forwards. He follows through with the arms, and then bounces back for the next "stroke". He is careful that his legs do not absorb the effort from the upper body. He goes very fast. The down side of this is that he cannot keep going; it is a sprint technique, so you will have to evolve this to suit you for a marathon race. The technique of your son sounds like mine, or at least as I wanted it to be :-) Maybe he can find a way to train it for longer races. I might be possible. This way of DP gives a lot of 'static' tension on the upper legs. When I was younger I speed skated a lot and I had a lot of hard workouts to overcome the pain of the static tension of a deep knee angle. And elite speed marathon skaters have a deep knee angle (100degrees) for hours. You might like to try the following way to coach yourself for efficient technique. This to use a trick some swimmers use. You play "golf". Find yourself a straight piece of track you can DP, and mark the ends. About 40 strokes long, although the exact length is not important. Then (after your warm-up of course) ski as fast as you can. Time how long it takes you and count how many strokes. Then add the strokes to the time in seconds - that is your "handicap". Now set about improving your handicap, which you can do either by going faster or by reducing the number of strokes. I have found that a useful test of what works and what doesn't. It does have the drawback that the technique that works best over a short distance may be too tiring for a long distance, so you will have to keep experimenting. Thanks. I'll try it after the Birkebeiner. For know the road here are covered with snow. The heaviest snowfall in 50 years! So I can do some extra skiing right in my backyard. Also check out the course profile for the Birkebeinerrenn. I haven't done the race but I have skied the second half of the course a number of times. There is a long steep climb to start, and a long descent to finish, so you need to keep working on other techniques too. The part I have skied in the middle was undulating, and if the conditions are right you may be able to DP a fair bit. Don't forget to practice skiing with a rucksack. I look so much to the profile that I can dream of it :-) Visualising the race is almost as importance as a preparation as normal training, isn't it? I know the tracks at Sjusjoen, but I also never did the first part. Wilfred __________________________________________________ _______________ Talk with your online friends with MSN Messenger http://messenger.msn.nl/ |
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