Steering is number three

[foot2foot]

Yea, I haven't posted for a while, and I've got some K's saved
up the way I see it, so here goes.

I've just spent a bit of time in Canada, coming very close to
putting my feet on the ground at every ski area in B. C. and a
couple in Alberta,. not skiing them all but spending time at
them.

After asking a whole lot of instructor types all over both
Provinces what items would be on the list of the elements
of the mechanics of skiing, and in what order, the universal
answer I got for number one, as I almost always have before
in the U.S., was balance and stance.

No one answered crossover for number two, but many
were intrigued by the idea as it was presented to them.

The most common answer I got for number two on the list
was steering, or as most Canadians put it, pivoting.

This would be defined as twisting the legs in the direction
you want the skis to travel, with the rotation either coming
from the two lower leg bones, or the twisting of the whole
leg in the hip socket (both at the same time of course).
Or the combination of both.

Steering. One of the elements of the mechanics of skiing.
That, as well as body position and crossover and some others.

Any more, having spent the entire season so far doing
nothing but steering and up unweighting, I'm really becoming
inclined to agree that steering must at least be number three
on the list. This is a very effective way to bring about a very
quick and round turn. The only other way to turn so very
quickly is to skid the tails around the tips, and this is not
possible in many cases.

The problem is, steering is closely related to upper body
position, which some of us like to refer to as rotation and
counter rotation, as they/it have been called for most of
skiing history.

For instance, If I have finished a turn, and my skis face
straight across the hill, with my shoulders square to the skis,
I have little power to steer the skis down the hill into the new
turn, because there is nothing to turn against. But if I rotate
my shoulders to face even a little bit down the hill,
now my legs have an anchor to turn against. Now I have
*lots* of power to steer the skis.

So, rotation and counter rotation, elements I used to think
of minor importance compared to others, seem to take
on a very basic nature. And steering and rotation and counter
rotation are necessarily linked. Although, the idea of turning
the skis by turning the shoulders is not exactly what we're
speaking of here.

Hmmm.

Things I found agreeable about CSIA progressions would
include a *real*, basic, old fashioned wedge. They call it
snowplow. None of this PSIA wedge stupidity. I also
found some use of the lifting of the tail of the inside ski being
taught to beginners in order to match skis.

But no one was making any use of the bunny berm, even
though a couple of places actually had it by pure accident of
design. Many were intrigued by the idea and the progression
that goes with it however. It does of course, go straight along
with the wedge, and progression they teach.

A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
"whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
they might even try to turn the skis.

One thing I did see in Canada. Lots and lots of beginner
lessons being taught. Because that's mostly what I looked for.
Mostly kids, but some adults as well. The bunny berm would
definitely speed up the process, whatever the progression
being used. Here's hoping it gets a better look before too
much longer.

[bruno invalid@yahoo.com]

In article >,
"foot2foot" > writes:
> This would be defined as twisting the legs in the direction
> you want the skis to travel, with the rotation either coming
> from the two lower leg bones, or the twisting of the whole
> leg in the hip socket (both at the same time of course).
> Or the combination of both.

Foot,

You should find a copy of this book: (Or learn French and read the original)

SKIING--An Art, A Technique, by G. Joubert.
Poudre Publishing: La Porte, CO. 1978.

This book is still considered "the bible of skiing" by some instructors.
My memory of it is kind of vague, but it had diagrams of how bones had to move
in order to do a particular turn. Sounds like your kind of approach to
learning.
For me it is too much information. But I learn more from visualization
and feeling than knowing the exact mechanic of a turn.

bruno.

[foot2foot]

"bruno" > wrote in message
...

> In article >,

> "foot2foot" > writes:

>> This would be defined as twisting the legs in the direction
>> you want the skis to travel, with the rotation either coming
>> from the two lower leg bones, or the twisting of the whole
>> leg in the hip socket (both at the same time of course).
>> Or the combination of both.
>
> Foot,
>
> You should find a copy of this book: (Or learn French and read the
> original)
>
> SKIING--An Art, A Technique, by G. Joubert.
> Poudre Publishing: La Porte, CO. 1978.
>
> This book is still considered "the bible of skiing" by some instructors.
> My memory of it is kind of vague, but it had diagrams of how bones had to
> move
> in order to do a particular turn. Sounds like your kind of approach to
> learning.
> For me it is too much information. But I learn more from visualization
> and feeling than knowing the exact mechanic of a turn.
>
> bruno.

Thanks, I think I have something by Joubert somewhere, I'll have
to take a look at it, as well as the book you mentioned.

Can you visualize this?

Sideslip (with skis directly across the fall line) down a moderate
slope, with your body facing straight down the hill, square to
the fall line. Hold your hands spread a bit, and forward, where
you would if you were making an aggressive turn.

Pull your skis as far underneath you as you can, then, give a
little hop, then with legs bent a bit, swing your knees, and as
such your skis, from the direction they're pointed, clear across
the hill to point to the other side, again straight across the fall
line. Pull your skis back underneath you again. Your body faces
down the hill the whole time. I've heard it called a pivot slip.
Another person might describe it better.

At any rate, there you have it. Steering. Twisting both legs
from the hip socket in the direction you want to go. I like to
look for a feeling of the legs turning against the steady upper
body, as opposed to the shoulders turning the skis. It's all legs,
quick and decisive, as if they're turning against the position
of the upper body, which stays facing forward down the hill.
Or, you could focus on the feeling of swinging the knees in
quick, crisp fasion, clear across the hill from one direction
to the other and back. Maybe even more than once in a row.

It seems the more one's legs are bent, to a point at least,
the stronger the steering move can be. So, it would seem, if
you really need to make a very powerful steering move with
the legs, you might try bending them a bit more than you might
otherwise. If one turns one's shoulders to face the direction
one wants to go, this will strenthen the steering move as well.

Thanks for the reply Bruno. :>) .

[lal_truckee]

foot2foot wrote:
>
> Pull your skis as far underneath you as you can, then, give a
> little hop, then with legs bent a bit, swing your knees, and as
> such your skis, from the direction they're pointed, clear across
> the hill to point to the other side, again straight across the fall
> line. Pull your skis back underneath you again. Your body faces
> down the hill the whole time. I've heard it called a pivot slip.
> Another person might describe it better.
>
> At any rate, there you have it. Steering.

That's a nice little exercise for advanced skiers - you should challenge
them to see how many hop turns they can do in a given distance. Next
have them do it on a 35-40 deg slope. Then take them to a genuinely
steep slope and challenge them to try it. Can't do it - angle of the
slope is too great - so wiper turns or pedal-hop turns are required.
It's a good exercise.

But it's not "steering" as the rest of the world uses the word IMO. The
rest of the world uses steering to mean actively guiding the skis toward
the direction of the desired turn on groomed intermediate terrain. Such
steering is a good way to initiate a beginner-intermediate skidded turn,
but it's nothing to encourage in an aspiring advanced skier trying to
learn to work his edges. In fact it should be actively discouraged and
"roll the ski" encouraged, just as it was for me in a clinic 25 or so
years ago (meaning it's not a "shaped" ski phenomena, it's been the norm
for decades for good skiers.

I think you should give your aspiring skier students a break and show
them how experts ski. Or do you mainly teach beginners? If so, Carry On.

[foot2foot]

"lal_truckee" > wrote in message
...
> foot2foot wrote:
>>
>> Pull your skis as far underneath you as you can, then, give a
>> little hop, then with legs bent a bit, swing your knees, and as
>> such your skis, from the direction they're pointed, clear across
>> the hill to point to the other side, again straight across the fall
>> line. Pull your skis back underneath you again. Your body faces
>> down the hill the whole time. I've heard it called a pivot slip.
>> Another person might describe it better.
>>
>> At any rate, there you have it. Steering.
>
> That's a nice little exercise for advanced skiers - you should challenge
> them to see how many hop turns they can do in a given distance. Next have
> them do it on a 35-40 deg slope. Then take them to a genuinely steep slope
> and challenge them to try it. Can't do it - angle of the slope is too
> great - so wiper turns or pedal-hop turns are required. It's a good
> exercise.
>
> But it's not "steering" as the rest of the world uses the word IMO. The
> rest of the world uses steering to mean actively guiding the skis toward
> the direction of the desired turn on groomed intermediate terrain.

Really, they don't. Steering is twisting the legs in the direction
you want the skis to go. That simple. Edged or not, weight
wherever you might have it, flexed, extended, whatever,
steering is it's own little animal. Like I said, the same thing
Canadians want to call pivoting.

Now, there may be other definitions, F I, one skier told me
he thought it to be a combination of things, but traditionally,
steering has been simply as described above.


> Such steering is a good way to initiate a beginner-intermediate skidded
> turn, but it's nothing to encourage in an aspiring advanced skier trying
> to learn to work his edges. In fact it should be actively discouraged and
> "roll the ski" encouraged,

Nowhere does it say that rolling the edges (angulation and
crossover) and steering exclude one another.

> just as it was for me in a clinic 25 or so years ago (meaning it's not a
> "shaped" ski phenomena, it's been the norm for decades for good skiers.

> I think you should give your aspiring skier students a break and show them
> how experts ski. Or do you mainly teach beginners? If so, Carry On.

Interestingly enough, this seems to be what CSIA wants to
emphasize currently. Early edge engagement. Really, so
does PSIA in it's own way. It's just that steering is a part of
the picture as well. I just don't think you can leave it out.

Rolling the edges and riding the ski by itself can't provide a
sharp enough turn, LAL. It just can't.

A pedal turn, for instance, is nothing *but* steering.
Twisting the legs in the direction you want to go against
the position of the upper body. Even though most of this
is done in the air.

Aside of that, nothing prevents one from rolling the edges,
crossing over and steering that edged ski without losing
much of the track you've already established.

LAL, if your doing any kind of jump turn, you're steering.
I'm not sure we're talking the same terminology. Zipper
line moguls is nothing *but* steering. It's not possible
otherwise unless you went straight down the course.

Another observation I might make is that pushing the knee
forward and into the turn and steering might well be the
same thing, thought of a bit differently.

[bdubya]

On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:50:28 -0800, "foot2foot"
> wrote:

>
>A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
>they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
>without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
>Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
>"whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
>they might even try to turn the skis.

I do think the "beginner berm" is a good idea. But...30 kph? If your
students are carrying that much speed into the berm, they're going to
have a lot of potential energy built up when they finally come to a
stop. Will you teach them to fall over on a hip when this happens,
or are they going to come back down the berm, reaching maybe 25KPH
(backwards) before they hit the bottom? They definitely won't be
bored, that's for sure.

bw

[Walt]

bdubya wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:50:28 -0800, "foot2foot"
> > wrote:
>
>
>>A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
>>they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
>>without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
>>Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
>>"whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
>>they might even try to turn the skis.
>
>
> I do think the "beginner berm" is a good idea. But...30 kph? If your
> students are carrying that much speed into the berm, they're going to
> have a lot of potential energy built up when they finally come to a
> stop. Will you teach them to fall over on a hip when this happens,
> or are they going to come back down the berm, reaching maybe 25KPH
> (backwards) before they hit the bottom? They definitely won't be
> bored, that's for sure.

And that, my friends, is how the halfpipe was invented.

Now you know The Rest Of The Story.

--
//-Walt
//
// There is no Völkl Conspiracy

[uglymoney]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 16:31:24 -0500, Walt
> wrote:

>bdubya wrote:
>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:50:28 -0800, "foot2foot"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>>A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
>>>they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
>>>without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
>>>Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
>>>"whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
>>>they might even try to turn the skis.
>>
>>
>> I do think the "beginner berm" is a good idea. But...30 kph? If your
>> students are carrying that much speed into the berm, they're going to
>> have a lot of potential energy built up when they finally come to a
>> stop. Will you teach them to fall over on a hip when this happens,
>> or are they going to come back down the berm, reaching maybe 25KPH
>> (backwards) before they hit the bottom? They definitely won't be
>> bored, that's for sure.
>
>And that, my friends, is how the halfpipe was invented.
>
>Now you know The Rest Of The Story.

Speaking of inventing new forms of skiing.

Wasn't big air skiing invented around the same time as the first run
of the Dukes of Hazard? All those General Lee's flying through the
air inspired a whole generation of leapers.

Bo and Luke Duke. The forefathers of extreme skiing.

nate

[Walt]

uglymoney wrote:

> Speaking of inventing new forms of skiing.
>
> Wasn't big air skiing invented around the same time as the first run
> of the Dukes of Hazard? All those General Lee's flying through the
> air inspired a whole generation of leapers.

Big Hair, nate, Big Hair. Think Daisy Duke and Farrah Fawcett Majors.



--
//-Walt
//
// There is no Völkl Conspiracy

[uglymoney]

On Thu, 24 Feb 2005 17:35:00 -0500, Walt
> wrote:

>uglymoney wrote:
>
>> Speaking of inventing new forms of skiing.
>>
>> Wasn't big air skiing invented around the same time as the first run
>> of the Dukes of Hazard? All those General Lee's flying through the
>> air inspired a whole generation of leapers.
>
>Big Hair, nate, Big Hair. Think Daisy Duke and Farrah Fawcett Majors.

Damnit! I'm always fuzzy about which came first, big hair or big air.

I wonder which one will viewed as a more important innovation by
future historians?

Meantime, I'm going skiing. See you all on the other side. I promise
to still be an athiest when I return.

nate

[bruno invalid@yahoo.com]

In article >,
"foot2foot" > writes:
> Can you visualize this?

I'm a bump skier. So that turn is my bread and butter except that I
don't need the hop. I can ride a flat ski from side to side with a quiet
upper body.
Incidently, I found out that it is a very good turn on "colorado ice"
because since you are right over your feet you don't slide out...

bruno.

[foot2foot]

"bdubya" > wrote in message
...
> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:50:28 -0800, "foot2foot"
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
>>they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
>>without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
>>Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
>>"whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
>>they might even try to turn the skis.
>
> I do think the "beginner berm" is a good idea. But...30 kph? If your
> students are carrying that much speed into the berm, they're going to
> have a lot of potential energy built up when they finally come to a
> stop. Will you teach them to fall over on a hip when this happens,
> or are they going to come back down the berm, reaching maybe 25KPH
> (backwards) before they hit the bottom? They definitely won't be
> bored, that's for sure.
>
> bw

Nope, It's been done and continues to be. Somewhere
around maybe 20 mph. The berm might as well be a quarter
pipe, it really hammers the student to a stop.We're not just
piddling around here, as has been done for so many years
with beginners. We're serious. Too many quit after one
lesson.

I'm not just imagining this, it's happening at certain areas
around the NW, and maybe soon in Canada.

What happens then when they hit the berm? They go
backward a bit, which they learn to control with the
backward wedge. They need to learn this as well anyway.
It's no big deal at all, they all can do it to one extent or the
other.

Mind you, an instructor *will* work *up* to this distance from,
and speed into the berm, but the fact remains. Real speed,
enough to really learn to edge, and control body position on skis,
before the student has ever even turned. With complete safety,
in the absence of all fear.

Thanks for the reply bw.

[foot2foot]

"bruno" > wrote in message
...

> I'm a bump skier. So that turn is my bread and butter except that I
> don't need the hop. I can ride a flat ski from side to side with a quiet
> upper body.

> Incidently, I found out that it is a very good turn on "colorado ice"
> because since you are right over your feet you don't slide out...
>
> bruno.

Thanks for the reply Bruno, in fact, it was shown to me as
a way to help me get the idea of mogul skiing. Then I began
to realize the usefulness of it in learning or solidifying all aspects
of steering the skis, as well as the extremely forward position
one might use in the bumps. That position seems to make it much
easier to steer the skis in really quick fasion.

[VtSkier]

foot2foot wrote:
> "lal_truckee" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>foot2foot wrote:
>>
>>>Pull your skis as far underneath you as you can, then, give a
>>>little hop, then with legs bent a bit, swing your knees, and as
>>>such your skis, from the direction they're pointed, clear across
>>>the hill to point to the other side, again straight across the fall
>>>line. Pull your skis back underneath you again. Your body faces
>>>down the hill the whole time. I've heard it called a pivot slip.
>>>Another person might describe it better.
>>>
>>>At any rate, there you have it. Steering.
>>
>>That's a nice little exercise for advanced skiers - you should challenge
>>them to see how many hop turns they can do in a given distance. Next have
>>them do it on a 35-40 deg slope. Then take them to a genuinely steep slope
>>and challenge them to try it. Can't do it - angle of the slope is too
>>great - so wiper turns or pedal-hop turns are required. It's a good
>>exercise.
>>
>>But it's not "steering" as the rest of the world uses the word IMO. The
>>rest of the world uses steering to mean actively guiding the skis toward
>>the direction of the desired turn on groomed intermediate terrain.
>
>
> Really, they don't. Steering is twisting the legs in the direction
> you want the skis to go. That simple. Edged or not, weight
> wherever you might have it, flexed, extended, whatever,
> steering is it's own little animal. Like I said, the same thing
> Canadians want to call pivoting.
>
> Now, there may be other definitions, F I, one skier told me
> he thought it to be a combination of things, but traditionally,
> steering has been simply as described above.
>
>
>
>>Such steering is a good way to initiate a beginner-intermediate skidded
>>turn, but it's nothing to encourage in an aspiring advanced skier trying
>>to learn to work his edges. In fact it should be actively discouraged and
>>"roll the ski" encouraged,
>
>
> Nowhere does it say that rolling the edges (angulation and
> crossover) and steering exclude one another.
>
>
>>just as it was for me in a clinic 25 or so years ago (meaning it's not a
>>"shaped" ski phenomena, it's been the norm for decades for good skiers.
>
>
>>I think you should give your aspiring skier students a break and show them
>>how experts ski. Or do you mainly teach beginners? If so, Carry On.
>
>
> Interestingly enough, this seems to be what CSIA wants to
> emphasize currently. Early edge engagement. Really, so
> does PSIA in it's own way. It's just that steering is a part of
> the picture as well. I just don't think you can leave it out.
>
> Rolling the edges and riding the ski by itself can't provide a
> sharp enough turn, LAL. It just can't.
>
> A pedal turn, for instance, is nothing *but* steering.
> Twisting the legs in the direction you want to go against
> the position of the upper body. Even though most of this
> is done in the air.
>
> Aside of that, nothing prevents one from rolling the edges,
> crossing over and steering that edged ski without losing
> much of the track you've already established.
>
> LAL, if your doing any kind of jump turn, you're steering.
> I'm not sure we're talking the same terminology. Zipper
> line moguls is nothing *but* steering. It's not possible
> otherwise unless you went straight down the course.
>
> Another observation I might make is that pushing the knee
> forward and into the turn and steering might well be the
> same thing, thought of a bit differently.
>
>
>
I've gotta agree with Foot here for the most part except to
add that there may well be two kinds of "steering".

What foot says is what I know as steering. But, there is
also "toe steering" which doesn't require any pivoting of
the legs, either lower or hips.

This is the pressuring of the big toe edge of the <soon
to be> outside ski and the little toe edge of the inside
ski and rolling your knees in the direction of the turn.

Little or no skid, no "pivoting" can be a gentle turn to
simply change directions on a traverse or catwalk or it
can be fairly aggressive and leading to euro style cranked
carved turns wherein you drag your uphill hand in the
snowboarder mode. Depends a lot on speed and slope.

Lal, you weren't watching me closely enough. "Most" of my
turns were "steered". You made the comment about my "Power"
turns cutting up the fresh more than your gentle ankle roll
turns which WERE more appropriate for the conditions.

Frankly I was amazed that you were cutting up the fresh
so little. Could have been those skinny liddle skis
you were using.

[VtSkier]

Walt wrote:
> bdubya wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 23 Feb 2005 20:50:28 -0800, "foot2foot"
>> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>> A beginner going straight into the berm at 30 K.P.H before
>>> they've even learned to turn, in complete safety, completely
>>> without fear. Again, and again. No bored beginners there.
>>> Ladies giving that little scream.Grandpas giving the ole,
>>> "whoa" as they head down into the berm at speed. *Then*,
>>> they might even try to turn the skis.
>>
>>
>>
>> I do think the "beginner berm" is a good idea. But...30 kph? If your
>> students are carrying that much speed into the berm, they're going to
>> have a lot of potential energy built up when they finally come to a
>> stop. Will you teach them to fall over on a hip when this happens,
>> or are they going to come back down the berm, reaching maybe 25KPH
>> (backwards) before they hit the bottom? They definitely won't be
>> bored, that's for sure.
>
>
> And that, my friends, is how the halfpipe was invented.
>
> Now you know The Rest Of The Story.
>
Actually this only a "quarter pipe" it took a snowboarder
to figure out how to REALLY get hurt.